[Krimel] As I said linguistics is not my field and this is not my theory. But complex systems can be governed by cause and effect and I don't see what any of this has to do with intellect pervading the universe.
Ron: Just seeing where you stood on things, I meant we can follow intellect down to the preference of atomic bonds if you wanted to. [Ron] But if you want to be accurate In assessing the origins of thought as it pragmatically applies To our culture then we have to look at the origins of our Logic and grammar in relation to it. [Krimel] If we did not have complex thoughts we would not have complex culture. The Primate order is filled with species that do have social structures and do not have language. If we seek to know about the origins of our culture then comparision with similar species is a good place to start. Then there is the paleo-archeological record and so forth... [Krimel] Sure I think that culture emerges from natural processes and I agree that language reflects the structure of our thoughts. Our culture is complex enough and old enough that there are written records that tell us the story of the evolution of western culture. Ron: The concept I was trying to emote was one of language and thought Developing together, when language needed to be more precise it began The process of separating abstract references from concrete references. I betcha Plato hated the Sophists because they won arguments with the Rhetorical play of words and meanings ie. metonymy. This was countered by universalizing And standardizing meaning which can be done easily with concrete references. Using these methods he could destroy a rhetorical argument. "In cognitive linguistics, metonymy refers to the use of a single characteristic to identify a more complex entity and is one of the basic characteristics of cognition. It is common for people to take one well-understood or easy-to-perceive aspect of something and use that aspect to stand either for the thing as a whole or for some other aspect or part of it. In linguistics, grammatical functions or (grammatical relations) refer to syntactic relationships between parts of speech such as subject, object, adjunct, complement. These are distinct from the semantic notions of agent and patient, as demonstrated by the fact that the passive voice in English modifies the mapping between agent/patient and subject/object." Ron: I feel metonymy shapes syntactic relationships and subsequently conceptual Understanding. The Greeks thought they skirted the problem but they didn't. Which I feel reflects how they transformed classical mathematics. " Greek mathematics was much more sophisticated than the mathematics that had been developed by earlier cultures. All surviving records of pre-Greek mathematics show the use of inductive reasoning, that is, repeated observations used to establish rules of thumb. Greek mathematicians, by contrast, used deductive reasoning. The Greeks used logic to derive conclusions from definitions and axioms.[13] The Academy of Plato had the motto "let none unversed in geometry enter here". Philosophical implications Concepts and metaphilosophy "A long and well-established tradition in philosophy posits that philosophy itself is nothing more than conceptual analysis. This view has its proponents in contemporary literature as well as historical. According to Deleuze and Guattari's What Is Philosophy? (1991), philosophy is the activity of creating concepts. This creative activity differs from previous definitions of philosophy as simple reasoning, communication or contemplation of Universals. Concepts are specific to philosophy: science has got "percepts", and art "affects". A concept is always signed: thus, Descartes' Cogito or Kant's "transcendental". It is a singularity, not an universal, and connects itself with others concepts, on a "plane of immanence" traced by a particular philosophy. Concepts can jump from one plane of immanence to another, combining with other concepts and therefore engaging in a "becoming-Other." Plato was the starkest proponent of the realist thesis of universal concepts. By his view, concepts (and ideas in general) are innate ideas that were instantiations of a transcendental world of pure forms that laid behind the veil of the physical world. In this way, universals were explained as transcendent objects. Needless to say this form of realism was tied deeply with Plato's ontological projects. This remark on Plato is not of merely historical interest. For example, the view that numbers are Platonic objects was revived by Kurt Godel as a result of certain puzzles that he took to arise from the phenomenological accounts. Gottlob Frege, founder of the analytic tradition in philosophy, famously argued for the analysis of language in terms of sense and reference. For him, the sense of an expression in language describes a certain state of affairs in the world, namely, the way that some object is presented. Since many commentators view the notion of sense as identical to the notion of concept, and Frege regards senses as the linguistic representations of states of affairs in the world, it seems to follow that we may understand concepts as the manner in which we grasp the world. Accordingly, concepts (as senses) have an ontological status". (Morgolis:7)-wiki Ron: I think this is the root of SOM. And why we conceptualize in terms of static subjects and objects isolated in space. What MoQ offers through language Is the building of concepts using terms which connects experience relatively As patterns of value in process, which then alters our logic and philosophy. Instead of seeing ourselves as separated from reality we begin to understand That we are reality, an aspect of the whole which is The Infinite transformation of energy or in Pirsigs words "Quality." I feel, western science leads to this conclusion, if anything, our philosophy trails it's findings as per the SODV paper in which Metonymy becomes the focal point once again. Therefore, what is really Required to move foreword in scientific explanation is the evolution Of our grammar used to build conceptual descriptions of the experience of phenomena. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
