Matt, Ron, and Marsha (Marsha mentioned in the P.S.)
> Matt:
> Mmm, I don't know about this way of picking out
> Platonists. You're talking about something that can
> occur in any particular person, independent of their
> philosophical views, a kind of willingness and curiosity to
> explore other things. But I hesitate to attribute
> philosophical views to people that would rather watch
> football than read or watch Nature programs. I think
> Platonism does have something to do with this larger,
> cultural situation--of people who don't even want to
> _hear_ the other side (for fear of changing, becoming
> convinced)--but I think it is much touchier business than
> almost everyone here, and Pirsig for that matter, think it
> is in linking up philosophical views with cultural
> situations. I think the two are more independent of each
> other, though you can, given careful treatment, go back and
> forth between them. I think Pirsig did it very well in ZMM,
> and pretty good again in Lila, though in the latter he
> devoted more of his time to a metaphysics that attempts to
> gain the philosophers are there own ground, which is
> needed, but is also less useful when you turn to the larger
> cultural situation.
> What I pick out with "Platonism" is a
> specifically philosophical series of theses--this is,
> again, my way of unmuddying my target. My targets are,
> primarily, other philosophers. When I turn to the larger
> cultural situation, I might grasp a few of the weapons
> honed in my battles in philosophy, but--as your little bar
> dialogue illustrated--they might not always be the best
> weapons. Who's going to wait around to hear a lecture
> on Plato? When I'm trying to effect change in the
> larger culture (normally, one person at a time), I reach
> for different weapons, one's they will understand.
> People understand "curiosity"; they don't
> usually understand "SOM" or
> "Platonism." The weapons I choose will certainly
> reflect to a certain extent my understanding of specifically
> philosophical issues, but there's no good reason to
> spend time on that when you're at the bar, not unless
> you want to sound pretentious.
SA: This was, by far, one of the clearest posts I've read of yours, by clear,
I mean you provided some intention into your activities in life, for one
specifically, why you post here and the points your trying to convey. This
last part of your post, though mentioned many times earlier, gets into your
focus and what your trying to cultivate.
To provide something on my part that could easily be a spin-off story of
the main story here, thus, maybe just a simple passing side note on what Ron
and you mention here about 'bar people' or people who watch football games.
This doesn't have to be something informative for you and Ron probably already
understand this, but it is a passing blurb if you will.
Everybody has a philosophy. Some more descriptive than others. Some more
descriptive in the usage of philosophical points by those that call themselves
philosophers, academic to be a little more meaningful as to whom I'm pointing
out. These types of philosophers use the terms and understand the terms of
philosophers of the philosophy discipline more so. It's takes a bit of
schooling and reading as we well know to learn of this discipline as any other
discipline that carries with it a history of people who practiced this in the
past. How else would we learn what they talked and/or wrote about, correct.
Unless it is passed down orally but as we well know, people aren't around many
people who talk about the philosophy discipline all that much, and even in the
university with professional philosophers and the conferences they attend to
talk with each other, some of the points they may want to learn about can
easily be found in a book instead of
searching for somebody to talk about what specifically we want to learn about
from such and such a philosopher at this or that point in history.
Now, the people who watch football games. They are not reading and
searching for these historical concepts that probably are tuning their
lifestyles in ways they (the football watchers) do not readily understand. I
mean we find bits and pieces of where history is orienting our daily lives from
time to time that is interesting and we've all had these moments. Pirsig
points out how the culture of Europeans and Amerindians in terms of value
coalesced in ways that shaped the U.S. culture. Culture is cultivated over
time, thus, has a history. And people walk patterns built by a history of
intentions, thus, concepts as to how and what is to happen and eventually does
happen. Newton, the philosopher understands gravity in ways that help lead up
to airplanes flying and people take business trips on these machines. Sure
many people along the way, before and after Newton leads up to these
understandings of airplanes and how those flying travels shape
how people do business now-a-days, etc...
So what are the philosophies of these football game watchers. What is my
philosophy, yours, or anybodies? One way, as we well know, is understood in
their lifestyles. Whether people realize it or not, our lifestyles are
philosophies, ways of life are philosophies. Maybe not analyzed in one way as
to how much the thoughts lead up to the actions of watching a football game,
but the very act of watching a game is doing what with a person, making them
happy if their team wins, fun with the friends, etc...
So, I guess my point of all of this, is, what are we doing? I enjoyed
reading this Matt, and I look forward to Ron's exchange. If it is helping you
understand something and making you happy and/or reaching your interests and
intentions, well, that's what is probably encouraging this discussion to
continue. This spark of enliving, bringing out ones self, and to look around
for oneself that really has one feel alive is found in many ways. Fun is one
of them. Stimulating ones thoughts another. Reaching a business goal.
Fulfilling ones dreams. Getting that TV you always wanted. The dream has come
alive and is lived. Now whether this dream is agreeable with what kind of
dream you find worth pursuing or I do or John Doe, etc... that's another story
and might be discovered in the thread that's exploring whether a brain in a vat
that is mystically moral is worth the natural endeavor or not, well, as Ian
pointed out, is answered naturally - so
it's a wait and see kind of event.
Thanks Ron and Matt.
Enjoyable.
tree,
SA
P.S. Marsha, haven't had the time to finish listening to the Opera. I only
started listening to it yesterday, so, I haven't sat down to listen to it
straight through without stopping to do other activities. But it is good so
far. The camping? Well, we made it all the way to the campsite, and I began
to gather firewood... and that's when part of tree that I was pushing up on,
slipped through my hands, knocked me on the head, the blood came rushing out,
and my wife had to help doctor me (also my son). I put green moss and dirt on
it to plug up the gash while my wife made a fire so we could put the ashes on
the wound to stop the bleeding. I laid down and my wife put some fine ashes on
the wound after she poked it with a burning stick to help stop the bleeding.
The ashes slowed the blood down tremendously, enough so that I could finally
put band-aids on without the blood gushing out past the band-aids. I had to
keep my head back and still do at the
moment without bending over for too long or some blood builds up in the area,
as we all know, and all this blood is too much on the scab and some comes out.
Yet, not too much comes out, the one large band-aid almost as big as my
forehead can handle it without me having to change it too soon.
So, we didn't stay. With all the blood, and the danger that it could
continue to bleed a lot over night, we left and came back to the house. I've
been cleaning the wound regularly and changing the bandage often. I say my son
helped for as my wife was applying ash he (remember he's twenty months old)
picked up some ash and put it on my wound too. He shows his very big human
heart already. He's so helpful, so touching. We're trying to avoid the
stitches, and so far it seems I may not need them, though, the blood still
leaks through at times, as I said, especially if I lean over for too long.
I remember laying on the earth while my wife applied the ashes and my son
looked over me. These birds were flying around in the branches above me for a
long time. It was like the stories. I jokingly said to my wife, "Are the
birds singing and flying signifying my passage into some heavenly place?" She
said and laughed while saying it, for I was nowhere near dying, "Well, if you
see white light and you want to." I said, "Heck no and laughed."
I've been lounging around most of the day, went outside a little bit, but
I really can't exert myself too much for it pushes the blood through the
healing wound. I really don't know what to make of all of this. This is the
second time I've tried to bring my son on his first camping trip, and our first
one for the year. Last week it was the thunderstorms and this week a young
fallen tree on the noggin'. It's baffling, but in a way, I like this feeling
of baffling. I think the tree really knocked some sense into me.
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