DMB, Squonk, SA, I see the problem .... Somewhere someone (DMB ?) introduced the idea of "babies" into the brain-in-a-vat (technologically sensory-controlled brain) thread. Neat rhetorical trick for stirring up emotion, but nothing to do with the thought experiment.
Mad scientists - they eat babies don't they ? Ipso facto - they are mad / evil. Oldest trick in the book ;-) Regards Ian On 6/28/08, david buchanan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > Squonk said to dmb: > How does Ken Wilber know there is such a thing as?a pre/trans fallacy? It > can be stated, but why is Ken Wilber such an expert on the subject? I don't > find this remotely convincing simply because Ken Wilber says it is. > > dmb replies: > You're objecting as if I were making an argument from authority, as the > point depended on Ken Wilber's voice for all its weight. But actually his > "pre/trans" fallacy could be removed entirely and the point would remain, > which is simply that babies and mystics aren't the same. Ron DiSanto, > co-author of "The Guidebook to Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" > made the same point. I'd asked him about this very point long before I ever > heard of Ken Wilber and he said, "Yea, sure. You have to have a mind before > you can transcend it". Joseph Campbell makes the same point by way of > Nietzsche. But I would hope that you'd be persuaded by the argument itself. > These names do have a way of adding authority and comfort me as a kind of > confirmation, but usually I like to say the same thing in several different > ways just for the sake of clarity and using the terms of guys like these > helps in that effort. In fact, it was Pirsig (Lila) who said that babies who > fail to recognize patterns will be retarded. It is Pirsig who said that sq > and DQ were both necessary. > > The static levels and moral codes also have a bearing on this thought > experiment and could even be used to make the same point, which is that > infants are different than Zen Masters. Babies aren't even competent at the > biological level while the latter have mastered all static patterns and then > some. As I understand it, one simply can't go from pre-linguistic brains to > mysticism without going through the developmental processes in between. > That's like having a ground floor and a fifth floor magically floating > several stories above, with no structure to hold it up. That's like going > directly from kindergarden to the University. It's like a guy with two feet, > a head and nothing but empty space in between. (See how I like to say the > same thing in several ways, just to be clear?) > > Squonk also said to dmb: > re. Crimes and ethical nightmares. This is your view. Thank you for stating > it. > > dmb says: > Really? You don't share this moral qualms? You think it would be ethical to > thwart the normal developmental process of infants? That idea doesn't sound > alarms in your conscience? I think children raised by wolves would stand a > better chance of having a rich, full life. As far as crime goes, I imagine > there would be no shortage of ways to charge a person for conducting such an > experience. Neglect, abuse, reckless endangerment, medical malpractice, and > some health codes just for starters. I'm sure the courts would order a > psychiatric evaluation of the experimenter too, and rightly so. Its madness. > You can't be serious. > > Ooops, gotta go. The water in my baby's sensory deprivation tank needs > changing. > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > The other season of giving begins 6/24/08. Check out the i'm Talkathon. > http://www.imtalkathon.com?source=TXT_EML_WLH_SeasonOfGiving > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
