Ian,
Squonk introduced babies when he said they are the same as Zen masters.
careful now,
steady,
SA
--- On Sat, 6/28/08, Ian Glendinning <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> From: Ian Glendinning <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: [MD] moq thought experiement 1.
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Date: Saturday, June 28, 2008, 10:44 PM
> DMB, Squonk, SA,
>
> I see the problem ....
> Somewhere someone (DMB ?) introduced the idea of
> "babies" into the
> brain-in-a-vat (technologically sensory-controlled brain)
> thread. Neat
> rhetorical trick for stirring up emotion, but nothing to do
> with the thought
> experiment.
>
> Mad scientists - they eat babies don't they ?
> Ipso facto - they are mad / evil.
> Oldest trick in the book ;-)
>
> Regards
> Ian
>
>
> On 6/28/08, david buchanan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Squonk said to dmb:
> > How does Ken Wilber know there is such a thing as?a
> pre/trans fallacy? It
> > can be stated, but why is Ken Wilber such an expert on
> the subject? I don't
> > find this remotely convincing simply because Ken
> Wilber says it is.
> >
> > dmb replies:
> > You're objecting as if I were making an argument
> from authority, as the
> > point depended on Ken Wilber's voice for all its
> weight. But actually his
> > "pre/trans" fallacy could be removed
> entirely and the point would remain,
> > which is simply that babies and mystics aren't the
> same. Ron DiSanto,
> > co-author of "The Guidebook to Zen and the Art of
> Motorcycle Maintenance"
> > made the same point. I'd asked him about this very
> point long before I ever
> > heard of Ken Wilber and he said, "Yea, sure. You
> have to have a mind before
> > you can transcend it". Joseph Campbell makes the
> same point by way of
> > Nietzsche. But I would hope that you'd be
> persuaded by the argument itself.
> > These names do have a way of adding authority and
> comfort me as a kind of
> > confirmation, but usually I like to say the same thing
> in several different
> > ways just for the sake of clarity and using the terms
> of guys like these
> > helps in that effort. In fact, it was Pirsig (Lila)
> who said that babies who
> > fail to recognize patterns will be retarded. It is
> Pirsig who said that sq
> > and DQ were both necessary.
> >
> > The static levels and moral codes also have a bearing
> on this thought
> > experiment and could even be used to make the same
> point, which is that
> > infants are different than Zen Masters. Babies
> aren't even competent at the
> > biological level while the latter have mastered all
> static patterns and then
> > some. As I understand it, one simply can't go from
> pre-linguistic brains to
> > mysticism without going through the developmental
> processes in between.
> > That's like having a ground floor and a fifth
> floor magically floating
> > several stories above, with no structure to hold it
> up. That's like going
> > directly from kindergarden to the University. It's
> like a guy with two feet,
> > a head and nothing but empty space in between. (See
> how I like to say the
> > same thing in several ways, just to be clear?)
> >
> > Squonk also said to dmb:
> > re. Crimes and ethical nightmares. This is your view.
> Thank you for stating
> > it.
> >
> > dmb says:
> > Really? You don't share this moral qualms? You
> think it would be ethical to
> > thwart the normal developmental process of infants?
> That idea doesn't sound
> > alarms in your conscience? I think children raised by
> wolves would stand a
> > better chance of having a rich, full life. As far as
> crime goes, I imagine
> > there would be no shortage of ways to charge a person
> for conducting such an
> > experience. Neglect, abuse, reckless endangerment,
> medical malpractice, and
> > some health codes just for starters. I'm sure the
> courts would order a
> > psychiatric evaluation of the experimenter too, and
> rightly so. Its madness.
> > You can't be serious.
> >
> > Ooops, gotta go. The water in my baby's sensory
> deprivation tank needs
> > changing.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> _________________________________________________________________
> > The other season of giving begins 6/24/08. Check out
> the i'm Talkathon.
> >
> http://www.imtalkathon.com?source=TXT_EML_WLH_SeasonOfGiving
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