Ian, I know I'm being a stickler about this, but Peter didn't say this, Chris did.
SA > Peter you said > "I seem to magically turn into Stalin in peoples > heads, and the > ideological stand-off begins." > > My point precisely. My comments are all about changing the > rules of > that debate - to avoid that recurring useless, destructive, > interminable standoff. > > I call this the "'somebody else's problem' > problem". You see that > standoff as "the others" problem, not yours / > ours jointly. You are > putting yourself in a "camp" (with DMB) and > projecting that position > outwards. I call that "looking for a fight" - > couldn't be better > designed to create a standoff if you tried. > > I'm just asking for more careful argumentation - choice > of language, > respect etc (from all camps) - so we can make progress. > > Your underlying position I haven't seen anything to > disagree with yet. > Ian > > > On 7/15/08, Christoffer Ivarsson > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > DMB - I like you! =) > > > > See, I'm not looking for some kind of ideological > stand-off - I'm just > > trying to get a constructive discussion regarding > conclusions that I have > > drawn from my way of seeing the MOQ. I mean, the > conclusions I have made is > > quite easy - > > > > - First I put it to you that the nature of the > intellectual level is that of > > the "Quest for knowledge for knowledge's sake > alone" > > > > - Then I say that Social Level Values should be > subordinated to Intellectual > > ones. > > > > - But if Intellectual Values is the movements towards > better understanding, > > then I have to draw the conclusion that social > structures should be modelled > > into serving that as much as possible. > > > > - Looking at this I notice that "freedom" > and concepts like that more and > > more looks like social value patterns - they seem to > be instruments which > > the intellectual level have planted in the social > level to help itself. > > > > - Then It comes to me, quite naturally, that if social > structures are to be > > remodelled to serve the intellectual level better (and > thus evolution) well > > then the social value pattern that is the _concept of > "freedom"_ may have to > > be looked over as well. > > > > The problem occurs when I propose that the freedom > that is free market > > enterprises may have to be restricted in order to > serve the intellectual > > level (as they are clearly social level patterns) I > seem to magically turn > > into Stalin in peoples heads, and the ideological > stand-off begins. > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > > > Message: 3 > > > Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 13:22:14 -0600 > > > From: david buchanan > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > > Ian said: > > > Exactly Marsha, "isms" for for people > stuck in social level patterns > > > > > > Cause Marsha said: > > > Marxism? Capitalism? They're both stinky. > And besides there's that old > > saying, "garbage in, garbage out". The > Intellectual Level needs to look > > beyond the past for something that considers the > seventh generation. > > > > > > dmb says: > > > I really don't think we should pretend to be > above "isms" and I think it > > is extremely unhelpful to pretend there is no > difference or that they all > > belong on the social level. There are quite a few > "isms" discussed in LILA > > and the political conflicts that make up the last > century (or so) of our > > history is used to explain the difference between the > third and fourth > > levels. Yes, it is true. Conversations on this topic > too often come down to > > some kind of ideological stand-off but I really > don't think this makes both > > sides equal. Haven't you ever noticed how > conservatives have to ignore or > > distort what Pirsig says about politics, as in the > recent case of Ayn Rand > > and her individualism? Take the Scopes trial of 1925, > for example, which > > pitted evolution against religion in our public > schools. This debate > > continues to this day and it is certainly a conflict > of "isms". Here's a key > > section from chapter 22 of LILA... > > > > > > "But when that trial is seen as a conflict > of social and intellectual > > values its meaning emerges. Scopes and Darrow were > defending academic > > freedom but, more importantly, they were prosecuting > the old static > > religious patterns of the past. They gave > intellectuals a warm feeling of > > arriving somewhere they had been waiting to arrive for > a long time. Church > > bigots, pillars of society who for centuries had > viciously attacked and > > defamed intellectuals who disagreed with them, were > now getting some of it > > back. > > > The hurricane of social forces released by the > overthrow of society by > > intellect was most strongly felt in Europe, > particularly Germany, where the > > effects of World War 1 were the most devastating. > Communism and socialism, > > programs for intellectual control of society, were > confronted by the > > reactionary forces of fascism, a program for the > social control of > > intellect. Nowhere were the intellectuals more intense > in their > > determination to overthrow the old order. Nowhere did > the old order become > > more intent on finding ways to destroy the excesses of > the new > > intellectualism. > > > Phaedrus thought that no other historical or > political analysis explains > > the enormity of these forces as clearly as does the > MOQ. The gigantic power > > of socialism and fascism, which have overwhelmed this > century, is explained > > by a conflict of levels of evolution. This conflict > explains the driving > > force behind Hitler not as an insane search for power > but as an > > all-consuming glorification of social authority and > hatred of > > intellectualism. His anti-Semitism was fueled by > anti-intellectualism. His > > exaltation of the German volk was fueled by it. His > fanatic persecution of > > any kind of intellectual freedom was driven by it. > > > In the United Sates the economic and social > upheaval was not so great as > > in Europe, but Franklin Roosevelt and the New Deal, > nevertheless, become the > > center of a lesser storm between social and > intellectual forces. The New > > Deal was many things, but at the center of it all was > the belief that > > intellectual planning by the government was necessary > for society to regain > > its health." > > > > > > dmb continues: > > > Pirsig makes reference to a whole lot of other > example in this chapter (as > > well as chapter 24 and scattered throughout the book). > For Chris and our > > other European friends, the New Deal is classic > American liberalism and the > > conservative movement - along with the boys from the > Chicago school of > > ecomonics - has been taking it apart bit by bit for > decades. They've been > > propping up third-world dictators like Pinochet and > its only getting worse > > by the day. (Again, you gotta get "Disaster > Capitalism" by Naomi Klein) The > > YouTube video about the atheist soldier who is suing > the army for being a > > christian organization would only be the most recent > example of how the > > social-intellectual conflict shows up in the news on a > daily basis. I don't > > know if the situation at the US Air Force Academy > makes national or > > international news but around here it counts as local > news and we've been > > hearing about it for years. (The academy is in > Colorado Springs, where many > > leading fundamentalist leaders > > > are headquartered.) Apparently, the students are > pressured to "get > > saved", to convert to fundamentalism and those > who resist are made to suffer > > for it. Add that to a thousand other assaults on > intellectual values. Oh, > > and did you hear? They gutted the fourth amendment the > other day. Russ > > Feingold and a few other brave souls are the other > ones who objected. I > > mean, really, this is no time to pretend that > "isms" don't matter. Wake up > > and smell the fascism. Please. Before its too late. > > > > > > Seriously, > > > dmb > > > > > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > Archives: > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
