DMB - I like you! =)
See, I'm not looking for some kind of ideological stand-off - I'm just
trying to get a constructive discussion regarding conclusions that I have
drawn from my way of seeing the MOQ. I mean, the conclusions I have made is
quite easy -
- First I put it to you that the nature of the intellectual level is that of
the "Quest for knowledge for knowledge's sake alone"
- Then I say that Social Level Values should be subordinated to Intellectual
ones.
- But if Intellectual Values is the movements towards better understanding,
then I have to draw the conclusion that social structures should be modelled
into serving that as much as possible.
- Looking at this I notice that "freedom" and concepts like that more and
more looks like social value patterns - they seem to be instruments which
the intellectual level have planted in the social level to help itself.
- Then It comes to me, quite naturally, that if social structures are to be
remodelled to serve the intellectual level better (and thus evolution) well
then the social value pattern that is the _concept of "freedom"_ may have to
be looked over as well.
The problem occurs when I propose that the freedom that is free market
enterprises may have to be restricted in order to serve the intellectual
level (as they are clearly social level patterns) I seem to magically turn
into Stalin in peoples heads, and the ideological stand-off begins.
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 13:22:14 -0600
From: david buchanan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Ian said:
Exactly Marsha, "isms" for for people stuck in social level patterns
Cause Marsha said:
Marxism? Capitalism? They're both stinky. And besides there's that old
saying, "garbage in, garbage out". The Intellectual Level needs to look
beyond the past for something that considers the seventh generation.
dmb says:
I really don't think we should pretend to be above "isms" and I think it
is extremely unhelpful to pretend there is no difference or that they all
belong on the social level. There are quite a few "isms" discussed in LILA
and the political conflicts that make up the last century (or so) of our
history is used to explain the difference between the third and fourth
levels. Yes, it is true. Conversations on this topic too often come down
to some kind of ideological stand-off but I really don't think this makes
both sides equal. Haven't you ever noticed how conservatives have to
ignore or distort what Pirsig says about politics, as in the recent case
of Ayn Rand and her individualism? Take the Scopes trial of 1925, for
example, which pitted evolution against religion in our public schools.
This debate continues to this day and it is certainly a conflict of
"isms". Here's a key section from chapter 22 of LILA...
"But when that trial is seen as a conflict of social and intellectual
values its meaning emerges. Scopes and Darrow were defending academic
freedom but, more importantly, they were prosecuting the old static
religious patterns of the past. They gave intellectuals a warm feeling of
arriving somewhere they had been waiting to arrive for a long time. Church
bigots, pillars of society who for centuries had viciously attacked and
defamed intellectuals who disagreed with them, were now getting some of it
back.
The hurricane of social forces released by the overthrow of society by
intellect was most strongly felt in Europe, particularly Germany, where
the effects of World War 1 were the most devastating. Communism and
socialism, programs for intellectual control of society, were confronted
by the reactionary forces of fascism, a program for the social control of
intellect. Nowhere were the intellectuals more intense in their
determination to overthrow the old order. Nowhere did the old order become
more intent on finding ways to destroy the excesses of the new
intellectualism.
Phaedrus thought that no other historical or political analysis explains
the enormity of these forces as clearly as does the MOQ. The gigantic
power of socialism and fascism, which have overwhelmed this century, is
explained by a conflict of levels of evolution. This conflict explains the
driving force behind Hitler not as an insane search for power but as an
all-consuming glorification of social authority and hatred of
intellectualism. His anti-Semitism was fueled by anti-intellectualism. His
exaltation of the German volk was fueled by it. His fanatic persecution of
any kind of intellectual freedom was driven by it.
In the United Sates the economic and social upheaval was not so great as
in Europe, but Franklin Roosevelt and the New Deal, nevertheless, become
the center of a lesser storm between social and intellectual forces. The
New Deal was many things, but at the center of it all was the belief that
intellectual planning by the government was necessary for society to
regain its health."
dmb continues:
Pirsig makes reference to a whole lot of other example in this chapter (as
well as chapter 24 and scattered throughout the book). For Chris and our
other European friends, the New Deal is classic American liberalism and
the conservative movement - along with the boys from the Chicago school of
ecomonics - has been taking it apart bit by bit for decades. They've been
propping up third-world dictators like Pinochet and its only getting worse
by the day. (Again, you gotta get "Disaster Capitalism" by Naomi Klein)
The YouTube video about the atheist soldier who is suing the army for
being a christian organization would only be the most recent example of
how the social-intellectual conflict shows up in the news on a daily
basis. I don't know if the situation at the US Air Force Academy makes
national or international news but around here it counts as local news and
we've been hearing about it for years. (The academy is in Colorado
Springs, where many leading fundamentalist leaders
are headquartered.) Apparently, the students are pressured to "get
saved", to convert to fundamentalism and those who resist are made to
suffer for it. Add that to a thousand other assaults on intellectual
values. Oh, and did you hear? They gutted the fourth amendment the other
day. Russ Feingold and a few other brave souls are the other ones who
objected. I mean, really, this is no time to pretend that "isms" don't
matter. Wake up and smell the fascism. Please. Before its too late.
Seriously,
dmb
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