[Ron] I think [avatars] have their merit, what I said was how avatars can be used as a loophole for accountability...
[Arlo] What the internet has done is give us a readily available medium by which anyone can see how "identity" can be disentangled from the notion of a bodily-associated "real you". And into this we have seen that the role-negotiations for identity "IRL" mirror the role-negotiations for "IVL". That is, there truly is no fundamental difference. "Arlo" is an avatar, Ron. You know him solely through his interactions in this medium. "Ron" is an avatar. We talk about meeting "IRL", and when we do you'll have a corporeal image to associate with "Arlo", but does that in any way correlate with "the real Arlo"? Indeed, will "the real Arlo" please stand up? When I ride with my Harley buddies, I don't talk linguistics or social theories or even often philosophy at all. I talk bikes and trips and oil and beer and strippers and burgers and elk. Indeed, many of my biker friends know me as "Jim" and not "Arlo". On the other hand, at work some people react with tilted heads and confusion if they find out "Techie Arlo" sometimes morphs into "Biker Jim". Which one "is the real me"? Both? Are they both "masks" on top of some deeper, core "me"? Can we ever be seen without a mask of some sort? Ron: As I stated before, I am aware that this MY shit, consequently I'm one of those "what you see is what you get" kinda people. You know, wear their heart on their sleeve, biker Ron is the same as philosophy Ron who is father and husband Ron, it makes for a terribly unpopular Ron, a lonely Ron. But a Ron who will stand up for his principles and values no matter where or who he is with, I just have some core values that are there no matter what. I'm a simple shit like that. I am not what I wear or what I look like. I am not who I am with or what I am doing. I am not my name or my body. through all that I have been through, I will say one thing, I have developed a core value system that I am willing to stake my life on. that's the "me" that's constant. Arlo: Ham, of course, dismissess those who play with online virtuality, but in truth "Ham" is every bit as much an "avatar" as my shaman personae "Aenea" in World of Warcraft. What do you know about "Ham"? You know what he tells you, and you assume that "to be true". And you've formulated ideas about "Ham" based on years of social interactions. But how closely do you think "the real Ham" mirrors the "Ham inside your head"? Indeed, for all intents and purposes there is "no real Ham" OTHER than the one "in your head", and this is a dynamically negotiated avatar. Same with "Arlo" and same with "Ron". [Ron] I spent a frightful evening with someone who I thought was sane slowly turn insane and by the end of the evening I had to call the police. [Arlo] Well now you've gone and brought neurobiological imbalance, trauma and/or psychosis into the mix. Who would you say "the real person" was, the one you know on meds? Or the one that appeared without the meds? Why? When Pirsig underwent his shock therapy, and literally had a "new identity" crafted for him, who would you say "was the real him"? Was he killed? Is this new person "not the same person" as the original Pirsig? He touches on all this in ZMM, but it remains fascinating to ponder when one thinks about "identity". Ron: I understand what you are trying to say Arlo, Jimmy, whoever you are, you never really know who someone is. I found THAT one out. what a mind fuk. but it's those few who really are who they say they are the ones who are the "real deal" the one you can trust no matter what, that I have always admired, an ideal that, I feel is worthy of aspiring to. living the ideal of honesty, integrity and accountability may be a pipe dream but it's a pipe dream I find appealing. I spent a lot of time not trusting anyone until I realized that I have to trust myself. Once I could rely on "me" everything changed. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
