Sweetest Marsha, Causality may be a finer frame of thy question?
----- Original Message ---- From: MarshaV <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 9:34:27 AM Subject: Re: [MD] patterns revisited At 08:43 AM 10/21/2008, you wrote: >----- Original Message ---- >From: MarshaV <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 4:00:50 PM >Subject: Re: [MD] patterns revisited > >At 02:47 PM 10/20/2008, you wrote: > > > Marsha: > >It is human nature to dissect, name and define, but not Nature. > > > > woods: > >I'm not dissecting and naming. I can, but that's where I'm trying to > >come at this. I could. And it can easily be taken that I am coming > >at this in that manner, but I'm not. Pirsig mentioned a mental way to > >understand. I'm trying to understand in a value way. Again, mental > >is a good way. It has value. But value is not restricted to mental only. > > >Marsha: >How about the value is experience. When I experience a tree, the >tree exists and I who experienced it exist. > > > >woods: > Are you trying to formalize or put into a formula what is > valued? Are you >trying to find a way to put into a formula how we are connected and >interrelated >with this world? SA, I thought you wanted to change the discussion from the nature of spovs to how value creates subject and objects. So: When a tree is experienced (valued), the tree (object) exists and the I (subject), who experienced the tree, exist. Experience (value) creates both subject and object. Does my statement not belong in this discussion? > > > ZMM Ch. > "Value, the leading >edge of reality, is no longer an irrelevant offshoot of >structure. Value is the >predecessor of structure. It's the preintellectual >awareness that gives rise to >it. Our structured reality is preselected on >the basis of value, and really to >understand structured reality requires an >understanding of the value source >from which it's derived." > > > You can lay a structure out that tries to relate an experience > your having, >what a tree is having, but value is preselected before structure. I >don't think >value will be found in the structure. We can give value to the >structure and thus, >harmonize, but the value will still be before the structure, before >me, before the tree. >So it is difficult to come up with a formula to state value. For >once we do, once we >get to some point of conclusion, underlying this point of conclusion will >still be urge, this unsettledness. Not in the sense of discomfort >or disturbed. But >as value changes and structures will constantly be changing, for >instance, I'm watching >the leaves blow in the wind, the clouds blow by, and the sun is now coming up >above the hill crest to the east, my son's playing and being >somewhat loud, I have >music playing, etc... Any formula I come up with to point out this >structured >circumstance can't hold for the leaves will not stay in the same >position, the sun >keeps moving, my son is now being actually pretty quiet, the music >did get softer but >it's building up, oh, now my son is getting louder, oh, the wind >stopped blowing. > Do you see what I mean? I could I ever come to structured > conclusion that I can >settle with? We can find structured events that will hold still >long enough to maybe >draw an accurate depiction, and that might be good for our lifetime >for that particular >event, but what of all these changing structures. > So I'm wondering what your trying to understand from > patterns? Patterns are what change: Of course patterns change. The tree pattern of me is different than the tree pattern of you, but there is probably some sameness and overlap too. Yes, yes, patterns are constantly changing. >ZMM Ch. 24: >"And when you really >understand dynamic reality you never get stuck. It has >forms but the forms are >capable of change." > > And so I find myself valuing peace of mind. Quiet > mentality. It's interesting for me >too for I came across quietness before I read ZMM from my experience >of zazen and being >in the woods. That's how I've read ZMM and Lila. With >quietness. Now one can >come back to getting stuck and trapped. That happens. One then comes back >to quietness again to refocus. ZMM also talks about value quietness >which is found >in the original quote I sent in this first post of this thread. I, too, had found quietness before I read ZMM. I had been practicing yoga and meditating for a couple of years. >ZMM ch. 25: > "But value >quietness, in which one has no wandering desires at all but simply performs >the >acts of his life without desire, that seems the hardest." > > >woods continues: > Isn't this our effort? Spiritual rationality Pirsig calls this > in ZMM. How to do this? Again back >to quietness of mentality or peace of mind, which then generates >from our lives and calms our >tensions that form structures that are rigid and get stuck. This is >how we can do >something to life in general. It starts with ourselves, but then we >begin to change the routines >in our life. Certain routines that no longer agree with our peace >of mind then change with our effort >to sustain our peace of mind. Quietness is our moral >compass. Quietness guides our directions in >life. If our spirit is not doing well, but we find we need some >gumption, and we get inspired and gain >the gumption to do something, then we do it. With consistent effort >and a sustained quietness or moral >compass is ripe to provide us with a good direction. Yet, once life >becomes so decadent and creativity >is lost, then something has gone astray. If you find what you are >doing becomes a task in which it >is consistently difficult to sustain quietness, then definitely >something is not sustaining ones quiet. Spirit >is the gauge. If your spirit is consistently down, but you keep >repeating what depletes ones spirit, then >I would recommend changing it up and trying it another way or trying >something else all together. > When I look around and see if people are being creative or not, > that is an indicator of their spirit. It is >an easy obvious way to notice our bright their spirit is burning or >have they settled into a world of >decadence. Without creative expression in the world, from a human >or a tree, then the spirit is decaying. >If ones spirit is down, then the inspiration is gone for one, and >the spirit is what brings any person or plant >into connect with real time. When the this happens I call it >ghostening. The world becomes fake, and the >sense of what is real is lost and depleted. Here is how we can >achieve value quietness from ZMM: Are you lecturing me about quietness? Do you think my interest in the nature of spovs is without spirit? >ZMM ch. 25: >"So the thing to do when >working on a motorcycle, as in any other task, is to cultivate the >peace of >mind which does not separate one's self from one's surroundings. When that is >done successfully then everything else follows naturally. Peace of mind >produces right values, right values produce right thoughts." > > >woods continues: > I say all of this, because this is what I currently value. This > is my current project. I find this >to be the root of the problem. It's spiritual. What of >patterns? They change. So, maybe >I didn't say anything at all that is on topic for this thread, but I >think I did at times. Maybe >this will help us come closer to understanding where the two of us >are coming from on this topic of >patterns. That was my effort here. I'm sensing your valuing >something and trying to convey >this value in some way that I can understand. It may not even be >your value, but what is value or >patterning as a bottomline or premise behind this whole >understanding of what patterns are. > >Let me know what's happening, and maybe you could help me better >understand what you >mean. What seemed to be happening is that you preferred a different topic. That's fine, your topic is interesting, and it doesn't take anything away from my interest in the nature of patterns. I'm going to start looking into the relationship between the MOQ and time. I found Ant's paper, and it seem like a good place to start. http://robertpirsig.org/MOQTime.htm bye, Marsha . . The Universe is uncaused, like a net of jewels in which each is a reflection of all the others in a fantastic, interrelated harmony without end. . . Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq..org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
