At 08:43 AM 10/21/2008, you wrote:
----- Original Message ----
From: MarshaV <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 4:00:50 PM
Subject: Re: [MD] patterns revisited
At 02:47 PM 10/20/2008, you wrote:
> Marsha:
>It is human nature to dissect, name and define, but not Nature.
>
> woods:
>I'm not dissecting and naming. I can, but that's where I'm trying to
>come at this. I could. And it can easily be taken that I am coming
>at this in that manner, but I'm not. Pirsig mentioned a mental way to
>understand. I'm trying to understand in a value way. Again, mental
>is a good way. It has value. But value is not restricted to mental only.
Marsha:
How about the value is experience. When I experience a tree, the
tree exists and I who experienced it exist.
woods:
Are you trying to formalize or put into a formula what is
valued? Are you
trying to find a way to put into a formula how we are connected and
interrelated
with this world?
SA,
I thought you wanted to change the discussion from the nature of
spovs to how value creates subject and objects. So: When a tree is
experienced (valued), the tree (object) exists and the I (subject),
who experienced the tree, exist. Experience (value) creates both
subject and object. Does my statement not belong in this discussion?
ZMM Ch.
"Value, the leading
edge of reality, is no longer an irrelevant offshoot of
structure. Value is the
predecessor of structure. It's the preintellectual
awareness that gives rise to
it. Our structured reality is preselected on
the basis of value, and really to
understand structured reality requires an
understanding of the value source
from which it's derived."
You can lay a structure out that tries to relate an experience
your having,
what a tree is having, but value is preselected before structure. I
don't think
value will be found in the structure. We can give value to the
structure and thus,
harmonize, but the value will still be before the structure, before
me, before the tree.
So it is difficult to come up with a formula to state value. For
once we do, once we
get to some point of conclusion, underlying this point of conclusion will
still be urge, this unsettledness. Not in the sense of discomfort
or disturbed. But
as value changes and structures will constantly be changing, for
instance, I'm watching
the leaves blow in the wind, the clouds blow by, and the sun is now coming up
above the hill crest to the east, my son's playing and being
somewhat loud, I have
music playing, etc... Any formula I come up with to point out this
structured
circumstance can't hold for the leaves will not stay in the same
position, the sun
keeps moving, my son is now being actually pretty quiet, the music
did get softer but
it's building up, oh, now my son is getting louder, oh, the wind
stopped blowing.
Do you see what I mean? I could I ever come to structured
conclusion that I can
settle with? We can find structured events that will hold still
long enough to maybe
draw an accurate depiction, and that might be good for our lifetime
for that particular
event, but what of all these changing structures.
So I'm wondering what your trying to understand from
patterns? Patterns are what change:
Of course patterns change. The tree pattern of me is different than
the tree pattern of you, but there is probably some sameness and
overlap too. Yes, yes, patterns are constantly changing.
ZMM Ch. 24:
"And when you really
understand dynamic reality you never get stuck. It has
forms but the forms are
capable of change."
And so I find myself valuing peace of mind. Quiet
mentality. It's interesting for me
too for I came across quietness before I read ZMM from my experience
of zazen and being
in the woods. That's how I've read ZMM and Lila. With
quietness. Now one can
come back to getting stuck and trapped. That happens. One then comes back
to quietness again to refocus. ZMM also talks about value quietness
which is found
in the original quote I sent in this first post of this thread.
I, too, had found quietness before I read ZMM. I had been practicing
yoga and meditating for a couple of years.
ZMM ch. 25:
"But value
quietness, in which one has no wandering desires at all but simply performs
the
acts of his life without desire, that seems the hardest."
woods continues:
Isn't this our effort? Spiritual rationality Pirsig calls this
in ZMM. How to do this? Again back
to quietness of mentality or peace of mind, which then generates
from our lives and calms our
tensions that form structures that are rigid and get stuck. This is
how we can do
something to life in general. It starts with ourselves, but then we
begin to change the routines
in our life. Certain routines that no longer agree with our peace
of mind then change with our effort
to sustain our peace of mind. Quietness is our moral
compass. Quietness guides our directions in
life. If our spirit is not doing well, but we find we need some
gumption, and we get inspired and gain
the gumption to do something, then we do it. With consistent effort
and a sustained quietness or moral
compass is ripe to provide us with a good direction. Yet, once life
becomes so decadent and creativity
is lost, then something has gone astray. If you find what you are
doing becomes a task in which it
is consistently difficult to sustain quietness, then definitely
something is not sustaining ones quiet. Spirit
is the gauge. If your spirit is consistently down, but you keep
repeating what depletes ones spirit, then
I would recommend changing it up and trying it another way or trying
something else all together.
When I look around and see if people are being creative or not,
that is an indicator of their spirit. It is
an easy obvious way to notice our bright their spirit is burning or
have they settled into a world of
decadence. Without creative expression in the world, from a human
or a tree, then the spirit is decaying.
If ones spirit is down, then the inspiration is gone for one, and
the spirit is what brings any person or plant
into connect with real time. When the this happens I call it
ghostening. The world becomes fake, and the
sense of what is real is lost and depleted. Here is how we can
achieve value quietness from ZMM:
Are you lecturing me about quietness? Do you think my interest in
the nature of spovs is without spirit?
ZMM ch. 25:
"So the thing to do when
working on a motorcycle, as in any other task, is to cultivate the
peace of
mind which does not separate one's self from one's surroundings. When that is
done successfully then everything else follows naturally. Peace of mind
produces right values, right values produce right thoughts."
woods continues:
I say all of this, because this is what I currently value. This
is my current project. I find this
to be the root of the problem. It's spiritual. What of
patterns? They change. So, maybe
I didn't say anything at all that is on topic for this thread, but I
think I did at times. Maybe
this will help us come closer to understanding where the two of us
are coming from on this topic of
patterns. That was my effort here. I'm sensing your valuing
something and trying to convey
this value in some way that I can understand. It may not even be
your value, but what is value or
patterning as a bottomline or premise behind this whole
understanding of what patterns are.
Let me know what's happening, and maybe you could help me better
understand what you
mean.
What seemed to be happening is that you preferred a different
topic. That's fine, your topic is interesting, and it doesn't take
anything away from my interest in the nature of patterns.
I'm going to start looking into the relationship between the MOQ and
time. I found Ant's paper, and it seem like a good place to start.
http://robertpirsig.org/MOQTime.htm
bye,
Marsha
.
.
The Universe is uncaused, like a net of jewels in which each is a
reflection of all the others in a fantastic, interrelated harmony without end.
.
.
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