At 03:03 AM 10/22/2008, you wrote:
Marsha
19 Oct. :
Marsha originally:
> > > What is the nature of a pattern in the Inorganic Level?
Bo
> >Inorganic patterns of value is the first stage of the static
> >hierarchy. This stage loosely corresponds to SOM's "nature" but the
> >comparison must not be taken too literally because it does not simply
> >mean "matter" but includes the forces (that in SOM are immaterial)
> >and fields ... whatever.
> >Pirsig's about MOQ's level arrangement not being new is a little
> >misleading as it really don't match at all - MOQ and SOM are worlds
> >apart - but more about this later if you want to pursue this subject.
Marsha now:
> I'd be most grateful to have someone go through this with me.
> My question is not so much what does an inorganic spov represent, but
> what is the nature of a spov in the Inorganic Level. My thinking is
> that it is primarily conceptual (although it has an emotional
> component). As a pattern of value is conceptual, it has as its
> referent inorganic phenomena.
The MOQ starts by rejecting SOM's subject/object divide as reality's
basic split (in favor of its own dynamic/static one) thus there is no
conceptual as contrasted to "real" (inorganic static patterns in this
case) at least when we see things from MOQ's dynamic position
outside its static hierarchy.
Yes, and I reject the subject/object divide as reality's basic split
too. Yet the subject/object divide is still an active
analogy. Maybe using mind/matter would be more helpful. The MOQ
states that it is analogue on analogue all the way down. Seems to me
a spov is an analogy, and I'm suggesting it's a conceptual analogy
pointing to reality (experience, quality, value &etc.), not reality itself.
However the former SOM has become the
intellectual level and here the S/O rules and here we may speak about
language concepts as different from what it is about. "The nature of a
spov" conveys the same "forbidden" S/O split outside of intellect.
There is no nature to inorganic patterns, no emotional component or
anything.
I agree there is no natural phenomenon within an inorganic pattern,
but I do think an inorganic pattern refers to some external, natural
phenomena. And there is something, I'm calling it a
sensual/emotional component, that I feel in relationship to all
patterns. I'm just considering what it might be. I am sure science
has named it, but I'm not necessarily considering from a scientific
frame-of-reference.
And yet we can't be all Zen-ish (cagey) regarding the levels and I've
found this list of their respective "expressions" most useful:
Interaction - Sensation - Emotion - Reason
Inorganic value expresses itself as interaction, the biological by
sensation, the social by emotion and intellect by reason.
Interesting. Is this your interpretation, or is there, additionally,
RMP's elaboration of this idea?
> When I use the word conceptual, I mean a spov is primarily mental
> activity. I do not mean a nice neat definition, or primarily language,
> but all that can be held in mind pertaining to the phenomena? Am I
> making any sense this far?
Mental as contrasted to corporeal is another S/O. Your "...I use the
word..." seems to imply that we live inside a conceptual bubble
impossible to escape, but this is seen from intellect's S/O. As seen
from the MOQ language is nothing more than a most useful social
pattern, this one intellect adapt for conveying its own S/O-reasoning
among those that language belongs to a conceptual realm different
from what it conceptualize.
Do this make sense to you?
Using the English language seems to put me inside a conceptual
bubble. It puts you inside the bubble too. If you think you're
presenting us with mystical insights, I don't get it. Analogy on
analogy on analogy. For all your pointing, you're using the same
messy analogues as everyone else.
I experience, to some degree, that
everything-is-connected-to-everything, and is an ever-changing,
collection of overlapping, interrelated, inorganic, biological,
social and intellectual, static patterns of value within a flow of
Dynamic Quality. And to be true to this, I need to dance it. Not
all my experience requires language. I understand language is a less
effective tool, but on this list it's all I have. Dmb has a knack
for it. You, not so much... Poetry can move closer, but then you
reject that as foolishness, don't you?
So I get that you're not interested in my line of thought. Okay.
Marsha
.
.
The Universe is uncaused, like a net of jewels in which each is a
reflection of all the others in a fantastic, interrelated harmony without end.
.
.
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