Hi Platt
The piece you quoted was Annotation 132 in Lila's Child which was in
reply to your comment:
"To fill the hole may require a new level above SOM. I’m not sure about
this. After all,
the MOQ is an SOM document based on SOM reasoning."
Annotation 132 follows.
Pirsig's reply still doesn't equate Reason with SOM. What it says is
that SOM employs reason, indicating that reason is an Intellectual POV.
The MOQ also employs reason, as shown in one of your favourite quotes:
"Taken by itself that seems obvious enough. But what’s not so obvious is
that, given a value-centered Metaphysics of Quality, it is absolutely,
scientifically moral for a doctor to prefer the patient. This is not
just an arbitrary social convention that should apply to some doctors
but not to all doctors, or to some cultures but not all cultures. It’s
true for all people at all time, now and forever, a moral pattern of
reality as real as H2O. We’re at last dealing with morals on the basis
of reason. We can now deduce codes based on evolution that analyze moral
arguments with
greater precision than before." (Chapter 13 Lila)
So reason is not SOM because if it was then we would have SOM
(Valueless) being used to support the MOQ (nothing but value) which
would be a complete contradiction.
Another indication from Pirsig that SOM and Reason are not identical is
the following:
"The intellectual level of patterns, in the historic process of freeing
itself from its parent social level, namely the church, has tended to
invent a myth of independence from the social level for its own benefit.
Science and reason, this myth goes, come only from the objective world,
never from the social world. The world of objects imposes itself upon
the mind with no social mediation whatsoever. It is easy to see the
historic reasons for this myth of independence. Science might never have
survived without it. But a close examination shows it isn’t so."
(Chapter 12 Lila)
I think the main problem I have with the idea that SOM and Reason are
identical is that in order for this to be correct, then Bo's SOL would
be correct and I just don't believe this is the case. And neither does
Pirsig, so I'm in pretty good company.
Cheers Platt
Horse
PS
Thanks to you (and Andre) for the nice things you said about me - I do
appreciate it.
Platt Holden wrote:
Hi Horse,
[Horse wrote]
So can you give me an instance of where Pirsig specifically equates
reason with SOM.
"It employs SOM reasoning the way SOM reasoning employs social structures
such as courts and journals and learned societies to make itself known.
SOM reasoning is not subordinate to these social structures, and the MOQ is
not subordinate to the SOM structures it employs. Remember that the
central reality of the MOQ is not an object or a subject or anything else.
It is understood by direct experience only and not by reasoning of any
kind. Therefore to say that the MOQ is based on SOM reasoning is as useful
as saying that the Ten Commandments are based on SOM reasoning. It doesn't
tell us anything about the essence of the Ten Commandments and it doesn't
tell us anything about the essence of the MOQ." (Note 132, LC)
Platt
Platt Holden wrote:
Hi Platt
Just a minor point - why do equate reason (or "reason alone") with SOM.
Surely reason is an intellectual POV and not a whole metaphysical
system.
Horse
Hi Horse,
Bo has given a fine answer to your question. Here's another one. From
the
Wikipedia entry on "reason:"
"Reasoning thought follows a chain of cause and effect, and the word
'reason' can be a synonym for 'cause.' "
>From Note 56, Lila's Child:
"The word 'produced' implies that Dynamic quality is a part of a cause
and
effect system of the kind generated by scientific thinking. But Dynamic
Quality cannot be part of any cause and effect system since all cause
and
effect systems are static patterns."
Great to hear from you. It gives me an opportunity to express my
appreciation for the high quality of your design and maintenance of
this
site. All participants past and present owe you a debt of gratitude if
not
cash contributions which you have repeatedly refused to ask for or
accept.
Be assured, however, that your efforts have not been overlooked or
forgotten. I know I speak for many here in saying, "Thanks."
Regards,
Platt
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Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an
attractive and well preserved body, but to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, wine
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