________________________________
From: Andre Broersen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2008 3:13:06 AM
Subject: Re: [MD] The Menu/Reality issue
Ron:
While I agree that ZMM was a more descriptive book and Lila dealt more with
abstract
concepts, I'm not sure how you interpret either as an adherence to that same
principle.
Bodvars faith in the Positivism of MoQ is something along the lines of the
faith a jesuit
may have, blind and unshaking.
Andre:
Secondly, I will respond to language being an obstacle.
1) I think this has been recognised as such for a long time. How can you
describe a tree, a table, a dog, a sunset,a walk through the bamboo
forest adequately with words? You cannot do it.
Ron:
No, not with mere "words" but one has to remember that those
words are connected to personal expereinces which represent those words.
That is why some art moves us more than others, some poetry more than
others.
Andre:
2) I brought this up in the context of NLP. What Bandler and Grinder found
out by talking to people was that they literally did what they said!
They believed and 'lived' their own words and as such limited themselves,
sometimes to the point of an inability to function (socially/ emotionally),
or to a point where they found they could not 'develop'/ 'grow' further as a
human being.
This led B&G to use the concept of 'the map is not the territory' to point
to this difference: the map=words we use to describe our world, the
territory= all the different ways of being in and experiencing this world.
The territory remains a purely S/O world. I am reluctant to call it a
metaphysics (in the NLP context). I may have to re-read some books but think
B&G never used the term.
Ron:
In my expereinces with NLP, the map is not only the words, but how we percieve
the world.
The terrain is direct, dynamic and defineable only as it is expereinced.
NLP says that our words shape our perceptions, our very thoughts.
Pirsig explained that when we allow abstract concepts that have no
corresponding expereince to shape our perceptions we begin to seperate
ourselves from expereince, we succum to the error of assumption.
Direct expereince becomes increasingly overlooked.
Ron says:
Andre mentioned the obsticle of language, I think this may be overcome
through a mindfulness
of not allowing logical statements to dominate our thinking, remember MoQ is
inductive and
holds descriptive sentences as prime not deductive ones.
Andre:
This is interesting Ron, I always thought that ZMM, i.e Phaedrus' quest for
Quality was an inductive book and Lila, an attempt to develop this Quality
into a full Metaphysics of Quality was a deductive book.
I believe Pirsig described them as such.
I therefore still heed Bodvar's (as Jesuit) warning.
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