On Wednesday 10 December 2008 11:50 PM Bo writes to Joe: Hi Plumber Joe 5 Dec. you responded to my my question: Bo before: > > Almost all creatures sleep, thus when an animal wakes up it must < > be to a state different from oblivion. Is this state a weaker > > version of the > > human "selfconsciousness" (nineteenth century thinkers spoke about > > "slumber"). Animals are known for their alertness and do not > > slumber. > > Please address this issue before going on it seems to be much like > > Phaedrus' "hot stove" insight that obviously launched him om his > > Q-track, but no one seems to understand. I have tried the "sleep" > > question on a lot of people without receiving a single response. Joe: > A wonderful question. Does a rock sleep? It is worn smooth by the > brook. It is melted by volcanic action. It flies into space from > volcanic explosions.Arock sleeps underground, and is awakened by the > erosion in the riverbed. Sunlight warms it and makes it grow beyond > its boundaries. Freezing water is irresistible and it splits. Hi Bo and All,
[Bo] I thought it was a straightforward question, but you either didn't understand it or evaded it. Sleep is a biological phenomenon and - again - animals that sleep must necessarily wake up to a state different from oblivion, yet animals aren't supposed to "have" consciousness so what is the state they wake up to? IMO this wrecks SOM's most pompous concept consciousness. [Joe] ³Consciousness² is only the proper identifying marker of the social level. I don¹t see your disgust with the word. ³Asleep² is certainly a proper description for someone who misconstrues the social level, or any level for that matter. That is why I started with the inorganic level. > Sleep is a state of being. My bones are awake while my > consciousness sleeps! [Bo] But what kind of consciousness is it that shuts down when a dog or a bird or a fish fall asleep? This is what it's about. Only humans are supposed to be (have) consciousness - at least the "hey, I am a human being" type - but can there be an unconscious consciousness? It's here that the MOQ supplies an answer by introducing "value perception" instead of the consciousness hoax. [Joe] I agree that ³value perception² is more precise than sleep or awake. The problem is that ³value perception² is indefinable. What value? Magnus in his essay needed an umbrella term for DQ so he used ³big bang.² In some way the steps of evolution are delineated Since ³consciousness² is reserved to the Social level, animals do not participate in consciousness. They have no ³value perception² outside of mathematics. Evolution is not creative. It only makes manifest the DQ that is already there from the Big Bang!. > Does a single cell have different functions? Conscious cells sleep > and re-supply their energy base in order to operate at full > capacity. What if they haven¹t been trained in how to operate? > Then, they know only sleep or awake! Nothing in between, like when > to rest for a greater challenge. [Bo] Your deliberations may be valid, but a bit off regarding my question so I leave it here in the hope that you will be a bit more to the point .... if you care to pursue the issue that is?. [Joe] I tried to further the discussion about ³consciousness² so that it becomes a proper analogy for the social level. Self-awareness at the Intellectual level, and probably higher functions for further levels to add the variety of enlightenment to our spice of live. Joe Bo On 12/10/08 11:50 PM, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote: > Hi Plumber Joe > > 5 Dec. you responded to my my question: > > Bo before: >>> Almost all creatures sleep, thus when an animal wakes up it must be to a >>> state different from oblivion. Is this state a weaker version of the >>> human "selfconsciousness" (nineteenth century thinkers spoke about >>> "slumber"). Animals are known for their alertness and do not slumber. >>> Please address this issue before going on it seems to be much like >>> Phaedrus' "hot stove" insight that obviously launched him om his >>> Q-track, but no one seems to understand. I have tried the "sleep" >>> question on a lot of people without receiving a single response. > > Joe: >> A wonderful question. Does a rock sleep? It is worn smooth by the >> brook. It is melted by volcanic action. It flies into space from >> volcanic explosions. A rock sleeps underground, and is awakened by the >> erosion in the riverbed. Sunlight warms it and makes it grow beyond >> its boundaries. Freezing water is irresistible and it splits. > > I thought it was a straightforward question, but you either didn't > understand it or evaded it. Sleep is a biological phenomenon and - > again - animals that sleep must necessarily wake up to a state > different from oblivion, yet animals aren't supposed to "have" > consciousness so what is the state they wake up to? IMO this wrecks > SOM's most pompous concept consciousness. > >> Sleep is a state of being. My bones are awake while my consciousness >> sleeps! > > But what kind of consciousness is it that shuts down when a dog or a > bird or a fish fall asleep? This is what it's about. Only humans are > supposed to be (have) consciousness - at least the "hey, I am a > human being" type - but can there be an unconscious consciousness? > It's here that the MOQ supplies an answer by introducing "value > perception" instead of the consciousness hoax. > >> Does a single cell have different functions? Conscious cells sleep and >> re-supply their energy base in order to operate at full capacity. What >> if they haven¹t been trained in how to operate? Then, they know only >> sleep or awake! Nothing in between, like when to rest for a greater >> challenge. > > Your deliberations may be valid, but a bit off regarding my question so > I leave it here in the hope that you will be a bit more to the point .... if > you care to pursue the issue that is?. > > > Bo Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
