I recognized that Marsha .... Your schizophrenic sarcasm falls into the "many a true word" category for me. Ian
On Fri, Jan 9, 2009 at 8:28 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: > > KO and Ian, > > My "Who decides? Who decides?" was sarcasm. or schizophrenia. It looks > like ones patterns, or variations of patterns, are ones truths. There are > many, many provisional truths. And while they are active they are true. > Nobody hold what they believe to be false. > > A while back I came across a statement about truth that shocked me with its > wisdom. It was concerning the illusionary nature of conventional truth, "If > all perceptions are false, how can any perception be true? They can be true > if they are known to be false." Yup! > > > Marsha > > > > At 07:01 AM 1/8/2009, you wrote: >> >> Yes, Ian and Marsha, The Process! Thats dynamic quality. Who chooses - not >> 'I' - he is after the event, the choice. >> This is most mysterious! >> >> -KO >> >> 2009/1/8 Ian Glendinning <[email protected]> >> >> > Hi Marsha, >> > >> > You make my point ... as did Lila ... >> > The issue is inescapable and clearly it is wrong to treat it is as a >> > question that "GOF-intellect" can answer directly. >> > By asking it as a stark question I make that apparent. >> > >> > I see it more as a process for dealing with it ie the question and the >> > answer are much more dynamic, living, circular ... strange-loopy. >> > >> > Thanks >> > Ian >> > >> > On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 10:58 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >> > > >> > > >> > > Who decides? Who decides? Everybody thinks they are on the side of >> > right. >> > > It's the way Lila said it was... There's no way "he" can be >> > > wrong... >> > It >> > > just goes, on and on and on... Left? Right? Middle? It just >> > > circles >> > back >> > > onto itself one way or the other. There is no escaping it. >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > At 04:06 AM 1/8/2009, you wrote: >> > >> >> > >> Hi Steve, >> > >> >> > >> I don't think we needed Ken Wilbur to point out that you need to >> > >> break >> > >> a few eggs to make an omlette. >> > >> Achieving something better always involves damaging / disadvantaging >> > >> / >> > >> hurting / killing / destroying something else - Darwin formalized >> > >> that >> > >> process. The only thing inherent or essential about human nature is >> > >> that it is evolved & evolving. When the power of better ideas fails >> > >> to >> > >> persuade (at the intellectual level), Pirsig (and Nietzsche and >> > >> others) show us that physical force is morally empowered to overcome >> > >> physical force (at the social and biological levels). There are >> > >> morally just uses of lethal violence, from the individual, right up >> > >> to >> > >> the the scale of wars. I don't think any of us are "pacifists" >> > >> pussyfooting around that. >> > >> >> > >> The question is begged of who decides when the "stronger violence is >> > >> in saner hands" and whether the moral balance is net positive - when >> > >> is it "sane" to hurt / kill / destroy for some "greater good" ? Basic >> > >> ethics / moral philosophy. >> > >> >> > >> It is what I keep coming back to - "governance" in a general sense - >> > >> who decides, and how ? We have a framework (the MoQ) for how these >> > >> issues of value relate, but who decides ? >> > >> That "sanity" is in the intellectual level of individuals. What >> > >> should >> > >> the relationship be between individual intellects and collective >> > >> societies - where (if any) are the (enforcable) social limits to (act >> > >> on) intellectual freedom ? >> > >> >> > >> Ian >> > >> >> > >> On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 8:20 PM, Steven Peterson >> > >> <[email protected]> wrote: >> > >> > Hi Marsha, Arlo, Ron, >> > >> > >> > >> > I dabbled in pacificism for a while, but Pirsig among others >> > >> > convinced >> > >> > me that humans are not intrinsically good. This is not to say that >> > >> > they are intrinsically evil, either. Pragmatists have given up for >> > >> > looking for essences which includes trying to talk about human >> > >> > nature >> > >> > as good or evil because we don't want to talk about an essence of >> > >> > humanity either. >> > >> > >> > >> > Can we achieve are goals without ever resorting to violence >> > >> > (including >> > >> > participating in a governement that has a police force and a >> > >> > military)? I doubt it. As Ken Wilbur pointed out, the only thing >> > >> > that >> > >> > has ever controlled violence is stronger violence in saner hands. >> > >> > >> > >> > Best, >> > >> > Steve >> > >> > Moq_Discuss mailing list >> > >> > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> > >> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> > >> > Archives: >> > >> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> > >> > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >> > >> > >> > >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> > >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> > >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> > >> Archives: >> > >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> > >> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >> > > >> > > . >> > > . >> > > Albert Einstein: "Although I am a typical loner in daily life, my >> > > consciousness of belonging to the invisible community of those who >> > > strive >> > > for truth, beauty and justice has preserved me from feeling isolated." >> > > . >> > > . >> > > . >> > > Moq_Discuss mailing list >> > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> > > Archives: >> > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> > > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >> > > >> > Moq_Discuss mailing list >> > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> > Archives: >> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >> > >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > . > . > Albert Einstein: "Although I am a typical loner in daily life, my > consciousness of belonging to the invisible community of those who strive > for truth, beauty and justice has preserved me from feeling isolated." > . > . > . > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
