At 02:40 AM 1/9/2009, you wrote:
I recognized that Marsha ....
Your schizophrenic sarcasm falls into the "many a true word" category for me.
Ian
Sometimes I'm not sure I understand my own babble...
On Fri, Jan 9, 2009 at 8:28 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> KO and Ian,
>
> My "Who decides? Who decides?" was sarcasm. or schizophrenia. It looks
> like ones patterns, or variations of patterns, are ones truths. There are
> many, many provisional truths. And while they are active they are true.
> Nobody hold what they believe to be false.
>
> A while back I came across a statement about truth that shocked me with its
> wisdom. It was concerning the illusionary nature of conventional
truth, "If
> all perceptions are false, how can any perception be true? They
can be true
> if they are known to be false." Yup!
>
>
> Marsha
>
>
>
> At 07:01 AM 1/8/2009, you wrote:
>>
>> Yes, Ian and Marsha, The Process! Thats dynamic quality. Who chooses - not
>> 'I' - he is after the event, the choice.
>> This is most mysterious!
>>
>> -KO
>>
>> 2009/1/8 Ian Glendinning <[email protected]>
>>
>> > Hi Marsha,
>> >
>> > You make my point ... as did Lila ...
>> > The issue is inescapable and clearly it is wrong to treat it is as a
>> > question that "GOF-intellect" can answer directly.
>> > By asking it as a stark question I make that apparent.
>> >
>> > I see it more as a process for dealing with it ie the question and the
>> > answer are much more dynamic, living, circular ... strange-loopy.
>> >
>> > Thanks
>> > Ian
>> >
>> > On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 10:58 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote:
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Who decides? Who decides? Everybody thinks they are on the side of
>> > right.
>> > > It's the way Lila said it was... There's no way "he" can be
>> > > wrong...
>> > It
>> > > just goes, on and on and on... Left? Right? Middle? It just
>> > > circles
>> > back
>> > > onto itself one way or the other. There is no escaping it.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > At 04:06 AM 1/8/2009, you wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >> Hi Steve,
>> > >>
>> > >> I don't think we needed Ken Wilbur to point out that you need to
>> > >> break
>> > >> a few eggs to make an omlette.
>> > >> Achieving something better always involves damaging / disadvantaging
>> > >> /
>> > >> hurting / killing / destroying something else - Darwin formalized
>> > >> that
>> > >> process. The only thing inherent or essential about human nature is
>> > >> that it is evolved & evolving. When the power of better ideas fails
>> > >> to
>> > >> persuade (at the intellectual level), Pirsig (and Nietzsche and
>> > >> others) show us that physical force is morally empowered to overcome
>> > >> physical force (at the social and biological levels). There are
>> > >> morally just uses of lethal violence, from the individual, right up
>> > >> to
>> > >> the the scale of wars. I don't think any of us are "pacifists"
>> > >> pussyfooting around that.
>> > >>
>> > >> The question is begged of who decides when the "stronger violence is
>> > >> in saner hands" and whether the moral balance is net positive - when
>> > >> is it "sane" to hurt / kill / destroy for some "greater good" ? Basic
>> > >> ethics / moral philosophy.
>> > >>
>> > >> It is what I keep coming back to - "governance" in a general sense -
>> > >> who decides, and how ? We have a framework (the MoQ) for how these
>> > >> issues of value relate, but who decides ?
>> > >> That "sanity" is in the intellectual level of individuals. What
>> > >> should
>> > >> the relationship be between individual intellects and collective
>> > >> societies - where (if any) are the (enforcable) social limits to (act
>> > >> on) intellectual freedom ?
>> > >>
>> > >> Ian
>> > >>
>> > >> On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 8:20 PM, Steven Peterson
>> > >> <[email protected]> wrote:
>> > >> > Hi Marsha, Arlo, Ron,
>> > >> >
>> > >> > I dabbled in pacificism for a while, but Pirsig among others
>> > >> > convinced
>> > >> > me that humans are not intrinsically good. This is not to say that
>> > >> > they are intrinsically evil, either. Pragmatists have given up for
>> > >> > looking for essences which includes trying to talk about human
>> > >> > nature
>> > >> > as good or evil because we don't want to talk about an essence of
>> > >> > humanity either.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Can we achieve are goals without ever resorting to violence
>> > >> > (including
>> > >> > participating in a governement that has a police force and a
>> > >> > military)? I doubt it. As Ken Wilbur pointed out, the only thing
>> > >> > that
>> > >> > has ever controlled violence is stronger violence in saner hands.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Best,
>> > >> > Steve
>> > >> > Moq_Discuss mailing list
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>> > >> >
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>> > >
>> > > .
>> > > .
>> > > Albert Einstein: "Although I am a typical loner in daily life, my
>> > > consciousness of belonging to the invisible community of those who
>> > > strive
>> > > for truth, beauty and justice has preserved me from feeling isolated."
>> > > .
>> > > .
>> > > .
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>
> .
> .
> Albert Einstein: "Although I am a typical loner in daily life, my
> consciousness of belonging to the invisible community of those who strive
> for truth, beauty and justice has preserved me from feeling isolated."
> .
> .
> .
> Moq_Discuss mailing list
> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> Archives:
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
>
Moq_Discuss mailing list
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.
.
Albert Einstein: "Although I am a typical loner in daily life, my
consciousness of belonging to the invisible community of those who
strive for truth, beauty and justice has preserved me from feeling isolated."
.
.
.
Moq_Discuss mailing list
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