Yes, Ian and Marsha, The Process! Thats dynamic quality. Who chooses - not 'I' - he is after the event, the choice. This is most mysterious!
-KO 2009/1/8 Ian Glendinning <[email protected]> > Hi Marsha, > > You make my point ... as did Lila ... > The issue is inescapable and clearly it is wrong to treat it is as a > question that "GOF-intellect" can answer directly. > By asking it as a stark question I make that apparent. > > I see it more as a process for dealing with it ie the question and the > answer are much more dynamic, living, circular ... strange-loopy. > > Thanks > Ian > > On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 10:58 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > Who decides? Who decides? Everybody thinks they are on the side of > right. > > It's the way Lila said it was... There's no way "he" can be wrong... > It > > just goes, on and on and on... Left? Right? Middle? It just circles > back > > onto itself one way or the other. There is no escaping it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At 04:06 AM 1/8/2009, you wrote: > >> > >> Hi Steve, > >> > >> I don't think we needed Ken Wilbur to point out that you need to break > >> a few eggs to make an omlette. > >> Achieving something better always involves damaging / disadvantaging / > >> hurting / killing / destroying something else - Darwin formalized that > >> process. The only thing inherent or essential about human nature is > >> that it is evolved & evolving. When the power of better ideas fails to > >> persuade (at the intellectual level), Pirsig (and Nietzsche and > >> others) show us that physical force is morally empowered to overcome > >> physical force (at the social and biological levels). There are > >> morally just uses of lethal violence, from the individual, right up to > >> the the scale of wars. I don't think any of us are "pacifists" > >> pussyfooting around that. > >> > >> The question is begged of who decides when the "stronger violence is > >> in saner hands" and whether the moral balance is net positive - when > >> is it "sane" to hurt / kill / destroy for some "greater good" ? Basic > >> ethics / moral philosophy. > >> > >> It is what I keep coming back to - "governance" in a general sense - > >> who decides, and how ? We have a framework (the MoQ) for how these > >> issues of value relate, but who decides ? > >> That "sanity" is in the intellectual level of individuals. What should > >> the relationship be between individual intellects and collective > >> societies - where (if any) are the (enforcable) social limits to (act > >> on) intellectual freedom ? > >> > >> Ian > >> > >> On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 8:20 PM, Steven Peterson > >> <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > Hi Marsha, Arlo, Ron, > >> > > >> > I dabbled in pacificism for a while, but Pirsig among others convinced > >> > me that humans are not intrinsically good. This is not to say that > >> > they are intrinsically evil, either. Pragmatists have given up for > >> > looking for essences which includes trying to talk about human nature > >> > as good or evil because we don't want to talk about an essence of > >> > humanity either. > >> > > >> > Can we achieve are goals without ever resorting to violence (including > >> > participating in a governement that has a police force and a > >> > military)? I doubt it. As Ken Wilbur pointed out, the only thing that > >> > has ever controlled violence is stronger violence in saner hands. > >> > > >> > Best, > >> > Steve > >> > Moq_Discuss mailing list > >> > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > >> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > >> > Archives: > >> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > >> > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > >> > > >> Moq_Discuss mailing list > >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > >> Archives: > >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > >> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > > . > > . > > Albert Einstein: "Although I am a typical loner in daily life, my > > consciousness of belonging to the invisible community of those who strive > > for truth, beauty and justice has preserved me from feeling isolated." > > . > > . > > . > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > Archives: > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
