Me and mine too Marsha, ... but that doesn't mean it's not true ;-) Ian
On Fri, Jan 9, 2009 at 8:46 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: > At 02:40 AM 1/9/2009, you wrote: >> >> I recognized that Marsha .... >> Your schizophrenic sarcasm falls into the "many a true word" category for >> me. >> Ian > > > Sometimes I'm not sure I understand my own babble... > > > >> On Fri, Jan 9, 2009 at 8:28 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >> > >> > KO and Ian, >> > >> > My "Who decides? Who decides?" was sarcasm. or schizophrenia. It >> > looks >> > like ones patterns, or variations of patterns, are ones truths. There >> > are >> > many, many provisional truths. And while they are active they are true. >> > Nobody hold what they believe to be false. >> > >> > A while back I came across a statement about truth that shocked me with >> > its >> > wisdom. It was concerning the illusionary nature of conventional truth, >> > "If >> > all perceptions are false, how can any perception be true? They can be >> > true >> > if they are known to be false." Yup! >> > >> > >> > Marsha >> > >> > >> > >> > At 07:01 AM 1/8/2009, you wrote: >> >> >> >> Yes, Ian and Marsha, The Process! Thats dynamic quality. Who chooses - >> >> not >> >> 'I' - he is after the event, the choice. >> >> This is most mysterious! >> >> >> >> -KO >> >> >> >> 2009/1/8 Ian Glendinning <[email protected]> >> >> >> >> > Hi Marsha, >> >> > >> >> > You make my point ... as did Lila ... >> >> > The issue is inescapable and clearly it is wrong to treat it is as a >> >> > question that "GOF-intellect" can answer directly. >> >> > By asking it as a stark question I make that apparent. >> >> > >> >> > I see it more as a process for dealing with it ie the question and >> >> > the >> >> > answer are much more dynamic, living, circular ... strange-loopy. >> >> > >> >> > Thanks >> >> > Ian >> >> > >> >> > On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 10:58 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> >> >> > wrote: >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > Who decides? Who decides? Everybody thinks they are on the side >> >> > > of >> >> > right. >> >> > > It's the way Lila said it was... There's no way "he" can be >> >> > > wrong... >> >> > It >> >> > > just goes, on and on and on... Left? Right? Middle? It just >> >> > > circles >> >> > back >> >> > > onto itself one way or the other. There is no escaping it. >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > At 04:06 AM 1/8/2009, you wrote: >> >> > >> >> >> > >> Hi Steve, >> >> > >> >> >> > >> I don't think we needed Ken Wilbur to point out that you need to >> >> > >> break >> >> > >> a few eggs to make an omlette. >> >> > >> Achieving something better always involves damaging / >> >> > >> disadvantaging >> >> > >> / >> >> > >> hurting / killing / destroying something else - Darwin formalized >> >> > >> that >> >> > >> process. The only thing inherent or essential about human nature >> >> > >> is >> >> > >> that it is evolved & evolving. When the power of better ideas >> >> > >> fails >> >> > >> to >> >> > >> persuade (at the intellectual level), Pirsig (and Nietzsche and >> >> > >> others) show us that physical force is morally empowered to >> >> > >> overcome >> >> > >> physical force (at the social and biological levels). There are >> >> > >> morally just uses of lethal violence, from the individual, right >> >> > >> up >> >> > >> to >> >> > >> the the scale of wars. I don't think any of us are "pacifists" >> >> > >> pussyfooting around that. >> >> > >> >> >> > >> The question is begged of who decides when the "stronger violence >> >> > >> is >> >> > >> in saner hands" and whether the moral balance is net positive - >> >> > >> when >> >> > >> is it "sane" to hurt / kill / destroy for some "greater good" ? >> >> > >> Basic >> >> > >> ethics / moral philosophy. >> >> > >> >> >> > >> It is what I keep coming back to - "governance" in a general sense >> >> > >> - >> >> > >> who decides, and how ? We have a framework (the MoQ) for how these >> >> > >> issues of value relate, but who decides ? >> >> > >> That "sanity" is in the intellectual level of individuals. What >> >> > >> should >> >> > >> the relationship be between individual intellects and collective >> >> > >> societies - where (if any) are the (enforcable) social limits to >> >> > >> (act >> >> > >> on) intellectual freedom ? >> >> > >> >> >> > >> Ian >> >> > >> >> >> > >> On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 8:20 PM, Steven Peterson >> >> > >> <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> > >> > Hi Marsha, Arlo, Ron, >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> > I dabbled in pacificism for a while, but Pirsig among others >> >> > >> > convinced >> >> > >> > me that humans are not intrinsically good. This is not to say >> >> > >> > that >> >> > >> > they are intrinsically evil, either. Pragmatists have given up >> >> > >> > for >> >> > >> > looking for essences which includes trying to talk about human >> >> > >> > nature >> >> > >> > as good or evil because we don't want to talk about an essence >> >> > >> > of >> >> > >> > humanity either. >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> > Can we achieve are goals without ever resorting to violence >> >> > >> > (including >> >> > >> > participating in a governement that has a police force and a >> >> > >> > military)? I doubt it. As Ken Wilbur pointed out, the only thing >> >> > >> > that >> >> > >> > has ever controlled violence is stronger violence in saner >> >> > >> > hands. >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> > Best, >> >> > >> > Steve >> >> > >> > Moq_Discuss mailing list >> >> > >> > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> >> > >> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> >> > >> > Archives: >> >> > >> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> >> > >> > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> >> > >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> >> > >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> >> > >> Archives: >> >> > >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> >> > >> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >> >> > > >> >> > > . >> >> > > . >> >> > > Albert Einstein: "Although I am a typical loner in daily life, my >> >> > > consciousness of belonging to the invisible community of those who >> >> > > strive >> >> > > for truth, beauty and justice has preserved me from feeling >> >> > > isolated." >> >> > > . >> >> > > . >> >> > > . >> >> > > Moq_Discuss mailing list >> >> > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> >> > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> >> > > Archives: >> >> > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> >> > > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >> >> > > >> >> > Moq_Discuss mailing list >> >> > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> >> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> >> > Archives: >> >> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> >> > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >> >> > >> >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> >> Archives: >> >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> >> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >> > >> > . >> > . >> > Albert Einstein: "Although I am a typical loner in daily life, my >> > consciousness of belonging to the invisible community of those who >> > strive >> > for truth, beauty and justice has preserved me from feeling isolated." >> > . >> > . >> > . >> > Moq_Discuss mailing list >> > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> > Archives: >> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >> > >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > . > . > Albert Einstein: "Although I am a typical loner in daily life, my > consciousness of belonging to the invisible community of those who strive > for truth, beauty and justice has preserved me from feeling isolated." > . > . > . > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
