Hi Marsha, You make my point ... as did Lila ... The issue is inescapable and clearly it is wrong to treat it is as a question that "GOF-intellect" can answer directly. By asking it as a stark question I make that apparent.
I see it more as a process for dealing with it ie the question and the answer are much more dynamic, living, circular ... strange-loopy. Thanks Ian On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 10:58 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Who decides? Who decides? Everybody thinks they are on the side of right. > It's the way Lila said it was... There's no way "he" can be wrong... It > just goes, on and on and on... Left? Right? Middle? It just circles back > onto itself one way or the other. There is no escaping it. > > > > > > > > > > > > At 04:06 AM 1/8/2009, you wrote: >> >> Hi Steve, >> >> I don't think we needed Ken Wilbur to point out that you need to break >> a few eggs to make an omlette. >> Achieving something better always involves damaging / disadvantaging / >> hurting / killing / destroying something else - Darwin formalized that >> process. The only thing inherent or essential about human nature is >> that it is evolved & evolving. When the power of better ideas fails to >> persuade (at the intellectual level), Pirsig (and Nietzsche and >> others) show us that physical force is morally empowered to overcome >> physical force (at the social and biological levels). There are >> morally just uses of lethal violence, from the individual, right up to >> the the scale of wars. I don't think any of us are "pacifists" >> pussyfooting around that. >> >> The question is begged of who decides when the "stronger violence is >> in saner hands" and whether the moral balance is net positive - when >> is it "sane" to hurt / kill / destroy for some "greater good" ? Basic >> ethics / moral philosophy. >> >> It is what I keep coming back to - "governance" in a general sense - >> who decides, and how ? We have a framework (the MoQ) for how these >> issues of value relate, but who decides ? >> That "sanity" is in the intellectual level of individuals. What should >> the relationship be between individual intellects and collective >> societies - where (if any) are the (enforcable) social limits to (act >> on) intellectual freedom ? >> >> Ian >> >> On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 8:20 PM, Steven Peterson >> <[email protected]> wrote: >> > Hi Marsha, Arlo, Ron, >> > >> > I dabbled in pacificism for a while, but Pirsig among others convinced >> > me that humans are not intrinsically good. This is not to say that >> > they are intrinsically evil, either. Pragmatists have given up for >> > looking for essences which includes trying to talk about human nature >> > as good or evil because we don't want to talk about an essence of >> > humanity either. >> > >> > Can we achieve are goals without ever resorting to violence (including >> > participating in a governement that has a police force and a >> > military)? I doubt it. As Ken Wilbur pointed out, the only thing that >> > has ever controlled violence is stronger violence in saner hands. >> > >> > Best, >> > Steve >> > Moq_Discuss mailing list >> > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> > Archives: >> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >> > >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > . > . > Albert Einstein: "Although I am a typical loner in daily life, my > consciousness of belonging to the invisible community of those who strive > for truth, beauty and justice has preserved me from feeling isolated." > . > . > . > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
