Krimmel, Mel and All, I will leave the subject of Jesus's mortality to those who want to take it further in Holger Kersten's book "Jesus Lived In India" where he presents his research and arguments in great detail.
I am more concerned about probable influences Buddhism and Eastern Philosophies of the time Kersten also explored and asserts had on the young Jesus during his formative years. Buddhism predated Christ by 500 years and was already present West Asia by the time he was born. Again I wont go into an analysis of the historical facts. Having picked up the book on a trip to India in 1995, I have found no reason to reject the hypothesis. Much of the Metaphysics of Quality is about establishing a social/cultural-free view of the universe which establishes the fundamental premise for morality. Again, what is good and what is bad. Values; what is right and what is wrong. It may be synchronicity that gave rise to the Karen Armstrong's Axial Age which occurred independently in four different regions during the Axial Age, a pivotal period lasting from 900 B.C. to 200 B.C., producing Taoism and Confucianism in China, Buddhism and Hinduism in India, Judaism in the Middle East and philosophic rationalism in Greece. According to the New York Times review of her book the Great Transformation, "Ms. Armstrong argues that the radicalism of the great Axial thinkers has yet to be understood. Their notion of the religious life was concerned less with belief systems than with self-transformation. Most were uninterested in questions of theology. "Their objective was to create an entirely different kind of human being," she writes. The Axial sages move humankind from a religious worldview mired in tribal loyalty and self-interest to an expansive spirituality that takes account of others. In writing of the Jains, circa 530 B.C. to 450 B.C., she writes, "The new ideal was no longer merely to refrain from violence, but to cultivate a tenderness and sympathy that had no bounds." Greece is the great exception. At a time when the Hebrew prophets were preaching monotheism, Greece opted for polytheism. In religion they were, in a sense, committed reactionaries. Their achievements lay in the fields of philosophy, ethics and science, and it was they who would lay the groundwork for what Ms. Armstrong calls the second great transformation, the scientific revolution of the 16th century that created the modern industrial world but that represents "a more mundane illumination." Ms. Armstrong gives them, and the West, a somewhat grudging two cheers. "The Axial Age was a time of spiritual genius; we live in an age of scientific and technological genius, and our spiritual education is often undeveloped," she writes. It is my reading of Pirsig that the chasm created by this second great transformation between the individual and the universe around him that has now come to a boil, that ultimately the sceptics, driven by their empty need to feel certain of themselves, will take their argumentations of their intellectual superiority to absurd lengths. For the record, the Greek origination of subject-object metaphysics, logic and philosophies are not exclusive to the Greeks alone. There are found in other philosophies sprung from other cultures and societies independently. It so happens, the Western framework spawned the Scientific Method and the Industrial Age with which the developed world asserts itself and especially through the barrel of a gun. That itself is not the end in itself though. Non Subject Object Metaphysics, subsumed in Western Society, flourishes in other cultures. Non-Subject Object Intellect pervades both in West and Eastern cultures and societies. if intellect is the manipulation of symbols, logical manipulation is only one of the ways of doing so. But the assertion that science/logic based manipulation is the only legitimate manner of intellect is a fallacy. If the observers of the universe view cultures through this faulty lens, they are likely to derive distored worldviews inherent in their lowly opinion of other cultures which have not made sufficient material progress, according to their standards and lump them all as inferior cultures or societies worthy of being stamped out. >From Pirsig's view and that of the Metaphysics of Quality, this world has been in a state of Arrested Development. If we keep going back to the circular argumentation that the intellectual state is the highest level of evolution and that the logical intellect is the only form, then we will always be back where we started; the separation of the individual from the universe. The promise of the Axial Age has been interrupted by the second "mundane" transformation, a case of Quality, Interrupted, if you must. Please, for heaven's sake, don't waste any more time. Get on with it. Regards, Khoo Hock Aun On Fri, Jan 9, 2009 at 2:26 AM, ml <[email protected]> wrote: > Khoo, > > Just a small correction: > > The Apocrypha is accepted by the fully > Orthodox as holy writ, just not as part > of the Bible. > > Many gnostic writings claim to be equal > to Apocrypha, but are not accepted as > such. > > Some protestant-dissenter churches > only accept the KJV bible. > > You have an interesting post, here. > Thanks you for sharing it. > > Since, eighty percent of the Christian world > was destroyed and its traditions lost as > Mohammed's Arabs spread his teachings > in a holocaust of sword strokes upon a river > of blood, only the tiny European Church > and a few scattered communities > elsewhere survived--a restricted set of the > original. So, who knows what traditional tales > have been passed down in half-remembered > forms throughout the world. > > Church investigators who deny folk stories, > genuine cultural artifacts, regardless of > orthodoxy, blind themselves and all who follow > to hints of history. > > thanks--mel > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Khoo Hock Aun" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 10:05 AM > Subject: Re: [MD] Christendom's place in the MOQ > > > > Platt, you asked: > > > > All of which raises the question: Is Christian morality also an > > intellectual level morality? -- > > > > > > Hey Guys, > > ** > > Here's* **The Synopsis of "Jesus Lived In India" by Holger Kersten > written > > by Dr Ramesh Manocha & Anna Potts, for a possible non-Western-centric > view > > of the MOQ. .Watch the rabbit go down the hatch and out again ! * > > > > ** > > *Holger Kersten:** "It is simply of vital importance to find again the > path > > to the sources, to the eternal and central truths of Christ's message, > which > > has been shaken almost beyond recognition by the profane ambitions of > more > > or less secular institutions arrogating to themselves a religious > authority. > > This is an attempt to open a way to a new future, firmly founded in the > true > > spiritual and religious sources of the past". * > > > > Thus begins Holger Kersten's book "Jesus Lived in India". This German > book > > is a thorough, methodical and authoritative examination of the evidence > of > > Christ's life beyond the Middle East before the Crucifixion and in India > and > > elsewhere after it. > > > > This article is a summary of Kersten's exhaustive research into Christ's > > travels after the Crucifixion, his arrival in India with the Mother Mary > and > > finally his death and entombment in Kashmir. Kersten notes the many > > parallels of Christ's teachings with other religious and cultural > traditions > > and suggests that at least some of these figures may have been one and > the > > same personality. It is not possible, Kersten asserts, to disprove that > > Christ went to India. The current information documenting Christ's life > is > > restricted to the gospels and the work of Church theologians. One can > hardly > > trust these sources to be objective considering their obvious interest in > > maintaining the authority of their Church and its grip on the masses. > > > > > > The Russian scholar, Nicolai Notovich, was the first to suggest that > Christ > > may have gone to India. In 1887, Notovich, a Russian scholar and > > Orientalist, arrived in Kashmir during one of several journeys to the > > Orient. At the Zoji-la pass Notovich was a guest in a Buddhist monastery, > > where a monk told him of the bhodisattva saint called "Issa". Notovich > was > > stunned by the remarkable parallels of Issa's teachings and martyrdom > with > > that of Christ's life, teachings and crucifixion. > > > > For about sixteen years, Christ travelled through Turkey, Persia, Western > > Europe and possibly England. He finally arrived with Mary to a place near > > Kashmir, where she died. After many years in Kashmir, teaching to an > > appreciative population, who venerated him as a great prophet, reformer > and > > saint, he died and was buried in a tomb in Kashmir itself. > > > > The first step in Christ's trail after the Crucifixion is found in the > > Persian scholar F. Mohammed's historical work "Jami-ut-tuwarik" which > tells > > of Christ's arrival in the kingdom of Nisibis, by royal invitation. > (Nisibis > > is today known as Nusaybin in Turkey) . This is reiterated in the Imam > Abu > > Jafar Muhammed's "Tafsi-Ibn-i-Jamir at-tubri." Kersten found that in both > > Turkey and Persia there are ancient stories of a saint called "Yuz Asaf" > > ("Leader of the Healed"), whose behaviour, miracles and teachings are > > remarkably similar to that of Christ. > > > > The many Islamic and Hindu historical works recording local history and > > legends of kings, noblemen and saints of the areas thought to be > travelled > > by Jesus also give evidence of a Christ like man; the Koran, for example, > > refers to Christ as "Issar". Further east, the Kurdish tribes of Eastern > > Anatolia have several stories describing Christ's stay in Eastern Turkey > > after his resurrection. These traditional legends have been ignored by > the > > theological community. > > > > Kersten also suggests that prior to Christ's mission in the Middle East, > he > > may have been exposed to Buddhist teachings in Egypt. After his birth in > > Bethlehem, his family fled to Egypt to avoid Herod's persecution. > > Surprisingly some scholars now acknowledge that Buddhist schools probably > > existed in Alexandria long before the Christian era. > > > > More clues are drawn from the Apocrypha. These are texts said to have > been > > written by the Apostles but which are not officially accepted by the > Church. > > Indeed, the Church regards them as heresy since a substantial amount of > the > > Apocrypha directly contradicts Church dogma and theology. The Apocryphal > > 'Acts of Thomas', for example, tell how Christ met Thomas several times > > after the Crucifixion. In fact they tell us how Christ sent Thomas to > teach > > his spirituality in India. This is corroborated by evidence found in the > > form of stone inscriptions at Fatehpur Sikri, near the Taj Mahal, in > > Northern India. They include "Agrapha", which are sayings of Christ that > > don't exist in the mainstream Bible. Their grammatical form is most > similar > > to that of the Apocryphal gospel of Thomas. This is but one example > giving > > credibility to the idea that texts not recognised by the Church hold > > important clues about Christ's true life and his teachings. > > > > In tracing Christ's movements to India and beyond, Kersten also > discovered > > that many of his teachings, which have been gradually edited out of the > > modern Bible were originally Eastern in nature. Principles such as karma > and > > re-incarnation, for example, were common knowledge then, and seem to have > > been reaffirmed by Christ. Imagine the implications that this discovery > > holds for Western Christianity and its churches, who have kept Christ in > > their doctrinal top pockets and have constrained the entire Western > culture > > within the narrow teachings of blind faith, organised religion and > original > > sin! > > > > Further clues are cited from The Apocryphal Acts of Thomas, and the > Gospel > > of Thomas which are of Syrian origin and have been dated to the 4th > Century > > AD, or possibly earlier. They are Gnostic Scriptures and despite the > > evidence indicating their authenticity, they are not given credence by > > mainstream theologians. In these texts Thomas tells of Christ's > appearance > > in Andrapolis, Paphlagonia (today known as in the extreme north of > Anatolia) > > as a guest of the King of Andrappa. There he met with Thomas who had > arrived > > separately. It is at Andrapolis that Christ entreated Thomas to go to > India > > to begin spreading his teachings. It seems that Christ and Mary then > moved > > along the West coast of Turkey, proof of this could be an old stopping > place > > for travellers called the "Home of Mary", found along the ancient silk > > route. From here Christ could easily have entered Europe via France. He > may > > have even travelled as far as the British Isles, for in England there is > an > > ancient oak tree called the "Hallowed Tree" which (says local legend) was > > planted by Christ himself. > > > > In his travels through Persia (today's Iran) Christ became known as Yuz > Asaf > > (leader of the Healed). We know this because a Kashmiri historical > document > > confirms that Isa (the Koranic name for Christ) was in fact also known as > > Yuz Asaf. The Jami - uf - Tamarik, Volume II, tells that Yuz Asaf visited > > Masslige, where he attended the grave of Shem, Noah's son. There are > various > > other accounts such as Agha Mustafa's "Awhali Shahaii-i-paras" that tell > of > > Yuz Asaf's travels and teachings all over Persia. It seems that Yuz Asaf > > blessed Afghanistan and Pakistan with his presence also. There are for > > example two plains in Eastern Afghanistan near Gazni and Galalabad, > bearing > > the name of the prophet Yuz Asaf. Again in the Apocryphal Acts of Thomas, > > Thomas says that he and Christ attended the Court of King Gundafor of > Taxila > > (now Pakistan), in about 47AD, and that eventually both the King and his > > brother accepted Christ's teachings. Kersten claims that there are more > than > > twenty one historical documents that bear witness to the existence of > Jesus > > in Kashmir, where he was known also as Yuz Asaf and Issa. For example the > > Bhavishyat Mahapurana (volume 9 verses 17-32) contains an account of > > Issa-Masih (Jesus the Messiah). It describes Christ's arrival in the > Kashmir > > region of India and his encounter with King Shalivahana, who ruled the > > Kushan area (39-50AD), and who entertained Christ as a guest for some > time. > > > > {Christ's life in India, after the crucifixion, challenges current Church > > teachings at their very foundation. The theology of Saint Paul, the major > > influence on modern Christianity, is empty fanaticism in the light of > this > > discovery.| > > > > The historian Mullah Nadini (1413) also recounts a story of Yuz Asaf who > was > > a contemporary to King Gopadatta, and confirms that he also used the name > > Issar, ie. Jesus. There is also much historical truth in the towns and > > villages of Northern India to prove that Jesus and his mother Mary spent > > time in the area. For instance, at the border of a small town called > Mari, > > there is nearby a mountain called Pindi Point, upon which is an old tomb > > called Mai Mari da Asthan or "The final resting place of Mary". The tomb > is > > said to be very old and local Muslims venerate it as the grave of Issa's > (ie > > Christ's) Mother. The tomb itself is oriented East-West consistent with > the > > Jewish tradition, despite the fact it is within a Muslim area. Assuming > its > > antiquity, such a tomb could not be Hindu either since the Hindus > > contemporary to Christ cremated their dead and scattered their ashes as > do > > Hindus today. > > > > Following Christ's trail into Kashmir, 40km south of Srinagar, between > the > > villages of Naugam and Nilmge is a meadow called Yuz-Marg (the meadow of > Yuz > > Asaf, ie. Jesus). Then there is the sacred building called Aish Muqam, > 60km > > south east of Srinagar and 12km from Bij Bihara. "Aish" says Kersten is > > derived from "Issa" and "Muqam" place of rest or repose. Within the Aish > > Muqam is a sacred relic called the 'Moses Rod' or the 'Jesus Rod', which > > local legend says, belonged to Moses himself. Christ is said to also have > > held it, perhaps to confirm his Mosaic heritage. Above the town of > Srinagar > > is a temple known as "The Throne of Solomon", which dates back to at > least > > 1000BC, which King Gopadatta had restored at about the same time as > Christ's > > advent. The restoration was done by a Persian architect who personally > left > > four inscriptions on the side steps of the temple. The third and fourth > > inscription read: "At this time Yuz Asaf announced his prophetic calling > in > > Year 50 and 4" and "He is Jesus -- Prophet of the Sons of Israel"! Herein > > lies a powerful confirmation of Kersten's theory. Kersten suggests that > > Christ may have travelled to the South of India also, finally returning > to > > Kashmir to die at the age of approximately 80 years. Christ's tomb, says > > Kersten, lies in Srinagar's old town in a building called Rozabal. > "Rozabal" > > is an abbreviation of Rauza Bal, meaning "tomb of a prophet". At the > > entrance there is an inscription explaining that Yuz Asaf is buried along > > with another Moslem saint. Both have gravestones which are oriented in > > North-South direction, according to Moslem tradition. However, through a > > small opening the true burial chamber can be seen, in which there is the > > Sarcophagus of Yuz Asaf in East-West (Jewish) orientation! > > > > According to Professor Hassnain, who has studied this tomb, there are > carved > > footprints on the grave stones and when closely examined, carved images > of > a > > crucifix and a rosary. The footprints of Yuz Asaf have what appear to be > > scars represented on both feet, if one assumes that they are crucifixion > > scars, then their position is consistent with the scars shown in the > Turin > > Shroud (left foot nailed over right). Crucifixion was not practised in > Asia, > > so it is quite possible that they were inflicted elsewhere, such as the > > Middle East. The tomb is called by some as "Hazrat Issa Sahib" or "Tomb > of > > the Lord Master Jesus". Ancient records acknowledge the existence of the > > tomb as long ago as 112AD. The Grand Mufti, a prominent Muslim Cleric, > > himself has confirmed that Hazrat Isa Sahib is indeed the tomb of Yuz > Asaf! > > > > Thus Kersten deduces that the tomb of Jesus Christ Himself is in Kashmir! > > > > The implications of Kersten's discovery are monumental. Christ's life in > > India, after the crucifixion, challenges current Church teachings at > their > > very foundation. The theology of Saint Paul, the major influence on > modern > > Christianity, is empty fanaticism in the light of this discovery. > Threatened > > also are the doctrines of obedience to the Church, original sin, > salvation > > through blind faith and the non-existence of reincarnation, etc. Yet > these > > ideas underlie the morality and ethics, (or lack of them), that govern > the > > entire Western social structure, from the legal system to medical health > > care schemes. It is no wonder that the modern Churches and their secular > > interests refuse to consider such a proposition as Kersten's! > > > > Rgds > > Khoo Hock Aun > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [email protected] > > > 6016-301 4079 > > > > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > Archives: > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > -- [email protected] 6016-301 4079 Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
