Hi Steve, Indeed most of us at one time or another have had a "mystic" experience such as Harris describes. At least I have, and in describing my experience to others over the years most have admitted to having similar experiences. So I assume it is not uncommon.
However, since I've never had a "born again" experience I can't say it's the same as a mystic experience. From what I read and have been told, the born again experience involves a total change of outlook, or as William James described it, "a perception of truths not previously known." That a person with a Western heritage connects such a revelation to Christian beliefs is not surprising. I presume those having similar experiences with other cultural backgrounds attribute them to other religions. In Harris's case (and in mine). there appears to be no transformation to a new understanding or an altered perception of the world as with those claiming to be born again. Further, it seems Harris's determination to "be a rational human being" would preclude him from ever having a change of outlook much less a religious conversion. I doubt if we can go much further with this other than to observe one's dedication to rationality might preclude one from being open to other possibilities about the nature of reality, not only a spiritual element as cited by religions throughout history and the world, but more directly to the interest in the MOQ of those here. After all, it takes a certain suspension of belief for a rationalist to accept the idea that the world is a moral order and that evolution was driven by a moral force. In any event, many thanks for your reference to the Harris article. His is indeed a great answer to my question and he may be right. Regards, Platt > Hi Platt, > > On Jan 10, 2009, at 8:15 PM, Platt Holden wrote: > > That's all fine and dandy, but rejects out of hand direct experiences > > that > > many people have of God and/or Jesus Christ which prompts them to > > become > > "born again" Christians. Seens to me a radical empiricist should > > explain > > why he accepts some direct experiences as valid but "will not allow" > > others. > > Steve: > I think the following by Sam Harris is a great answer to your question: > > "I recently spent an afternoon on the northwestern shore of the Sea of > Galilee, atop the mount where Jesus is believed to have preached his > most famous sermon. It was an infernally hot day, and the sanctuary was > crowded with Christian pilgrims from many continents. Some gathered > silently in the shade, while others staggered in the noonday sun, > taking photographs. > > As I sat and gazed upon the surrounding hills gently sloping to an > inland sea, a feeling of peace came over me. It soon grew to a blissful > stillness that silenced my thoughts. In an instant, the sense of being > a separate self-an "I" or a "me"-vanished. Everything was as it had > been-the cloudless sky, the pilgrims clutching their bottles of > water-but I no longer felt like I was separate from the scene, peering > out at the world from behind my eyes. Only the world remained. > > The experience lasted just a few moments, but returned many times as I > gazed out over the land where Jesus is believed to have walked, > gathered his apostles, and worked many of his miracles. If I were a > Christian, I would undoubtedly interpret this experience in Christian > terms. I might believe that I had glimpsed the oneness of God, or felt > the descent of the Holy Spirit.But I am not a Christian. > > If I were a Hindu, I might talk about "Brahman," the eternal Self, of > which all individual minds are thought to be a mere modification. But I > am not a Hindu. If I were a Buddhist, I might talk about the > "dharmakaya of emptiness" in which all apparent things manifest. But I > am not a Buddhist. > > As someone who is simply making his best effort to be a rational human > being, I am very slow to draw metaphysical conclusions from experiences > of this sort. The truth is, I experience what I would call the > "selflessness of consciousness" rather often, wherever I happen to > meditate-be it in a Buddhist monastery, a Hindu temple, or while having > my teeth cleaned. Consequently, the fact that I also had this > experience at a Christian holy site does not lend an ounce of > credibility to the doctrine of Christianity. > > There is no question that people have "spiritual" experiences (I use > words like "spiritual" and "mystical" in scare quotes, because they > come to us trailing a long tail of metaphysical debris). Every culture > has produced people who have gone off into caves for months or years > and discovered that certain deliberate uses of attention-introspection, > meditation, prayer-can radically transform a person´s moment to moment > perception of the world." > > I am sure DMB would never deny such experiences. But when I hear > Christian's describe similar experiences, I don't hear them describing > anything that supports any particular religion or any dogma whatsoever, > though they often see such experiences as somehow being proof of > "facts" like the virgin birth, the historical veracity of the bodily > resurrection of Jesus, etc. > > Regards, > Steve > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
