At 06:47 PM 2/7/2009, you wrote:
> > > > > > > >[Marsha]
> > > > > > > >Within the MOQ, theism, god and religion are static patterns
of
> > > > > > > > value.
> > > > > > > >[Krimel]
> > > > > > > >What is a static pattern?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >Marsha:
> > > > > > >A conceptual construct, or a static pattern of value. Do you
> > > > > like paradox?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >[Krimel]
> > > > > > >What is a conceptual construct?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >[Marsha]
> > > > > >Why don't you tell me. You know you want to...
> > > > > >
> > > > > >[Krimel]
> > > > > >Sounds like just a thought.
> > > > >
> > > > >Marsha
> > > > >A mental construct, a static pattern of value.
> > > > >
> > > > >[Krimel]
> > > > >Constructed of what?
> > > >
> > > >Marsha
> > > >Constructed of emptiness which dependent arising.
> > > >
> > > >[Krimel]
> > > >"Constructed" of emptiness? Emptiness arising? Dependant on what?
> > >
> > >[Marsha]
> > >Dependent arising:
> > >
> > >This is the understanding that any phenomenon exists only because of
> > >the existence of other phenomena in an incredibly complex web of
> > >cause and effect covering time past, time present and time future.
> > >This concept of a web is symbolized by Indra's net, a
> > >multidimensional spider's web on which lies an infinite amount of dew
> > >drops or jewels, and in these are reflected the reflections of all
> > >the other drops of dew ad infinitum.
> > >
> > >Stated in another way, everything depends on everything else. A human
> > >being's existence in any given moment is dependent on the condition
> > >of everything else in the world at that moment, but in an equally
> > >significant way, the condition of everything in the world in that
> > >moment depends conversely on the character and condition of that
> > >human being. Everything in the Universe is interconnected through the
> > >web of cause and effect such that the whole and the parts are
> > >mutually interdependent. The character and condition of entities at
> > >any given time are intimately connected with the character and
> > >condition of all other entities that superficially may appear to be
> > >unconnected or unrelated.
> > >
> > >[Krimel]
> > >But if it's all just concepts from whence do they arises? Other
concepts?
> > >And where do they reside? More concepts? What sort of "existence" are
you
> > >talking about? What is a phenomenon?
> >
> >Marsha
> >All conventional phenomena are conceptually designated, depending for
> >whatever identity and existence they have on such designation (static
> >pattern of value), and that this merely imputed status is their
> >ultimate nature.
> >
> >[Krimel]
> >So conventional phenomena are more concepts? But they have an ultimate
> >nature beyond being concepts?
>
>[Marsha]
>Things from there own side are free from imputation. Nothing can be
>said from their side.
>
>[Krimel]
>Which side is which? A thing? I thought there were no things, just
concepts?
>Which side can nothing be said from? Who or what would do the imputing?
[Marsha]
External phenomena from their own side are free from imputation.
Nothing can be said from the external side.
[Krimel]
How can phenomena be anywhere but inside? Isn't the external side a pattern?
Why can't we talk about it?
No value in talking about it anymore. Muster up some scientific
materialism for the crowd.
Marsha
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