[Arlo previously] While the "impetus to transcend" may very well be innate to human nature, "g*d" is not. It comes afterwards, the product of response to transcendence; not what drives it.
[Michael] I need to dwell on that, but I think I can generally accept this. I think, though, if there is a confusion, it is not necessarily only in my court, and rather between us as to what constitutes "belief." [Arlo] Well we could go round and round on definitions (as we have been doing). [Michael] I see belief in this context, relative to theism, to be the transcendent moment, a DQ moment. [Arlo] I see DQ as more a sudden flash of "AHA!", from which "belief" emanates. [Michael] And that belief, that DQ moment however, occurs not in a vacuum, but NECESSARILY in a culture. [Arlo] Yes. I'd add here only that this necessity is both enabling and constraining. The "cultural glasses" Pirsig talks about not only limit (constrain) our vision, but they enable us to see (socially, and subsequently intellectually) as well. It is from this that one points to a Void that is always outside our vision; inescapably so. (Yes, "Void" is a metaphor/analogy as well. The painting which captures this very well is Magritte's "The False Mirror"). [Michael] An aside here, is to note that this is what launched me here on this to begin with, that not ALL those cultural manifestations are poor quality. [Arlo] I've never said that ALL cultural manifestations are poor quality. I personally find the rituals associated with Beerfest very rewarding, very fun and very Quality. [Michael] That some are good quality experiences leads me to believe that which is driving them is not by default poor quality per se, just perhaps not well suited to produce good quality results more often than not given the cultural context in which it occurs. [Arlo] I'd agree. [Michael] Going on, this then leads one to question to what degree theism is the culprit to be rooted out for MoQ to flourish. If theism is a culturally driven thing, and by my reckoning, the theistic DQ event not in itself the bad thing, we necessarily must conclude that culture is the culprit. [Arlo] I'd agree. I think Pirsig talks about (I'll use your words here (I hope)) how theism in non-SOM cultures has led to less problems than in the SOM-West where "the word as literal" has led to some pretty awful social patterns. This is why there are no fundamentalist Buddhists out there calling for Jihads or starting Crusades. (Okay, someone mentioned that there could be some fundie Buddies out there, but you have to admit its quite uncommon historically). [Michael] Theism, while admittedly culturally based, cannot be eliminated. [Arlo] I don't think the MOQ attempts to eliminate it, rather to place it in a larger framework of understanding. [Michael] So while the MoQ as many here like to quote (and which a haven't the knowledge or understanding to dispute so for now accept at face value) is "anti-theistic", I posit that this DOES NOT translate to require atheism or anti-theism on a cultural level. [Arlo] Well, you could make the argument (haven't we?) that the hoi polloi will always seem to need religion to be controlled. Or that given a SOM->MOQ shift, theism in the west would come to resemble more the Eastern traditions; with less of the bad cultural baggage we've pointed to. Furthermore, like paintings, these myths do serve a valuable purpose when they are pointers to the unseeable Void. The key (for me) is to get people to stop focusing on the pointer and turn their gaze to what all man's myths across time and geography have pointed. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
