[DS:]
Physiology/ psychology, it seems everyone at this forum wants to keep
these two things separate. 

[Krimel]
Not guilty. I bring this up all the time but always get sidetracked by the
mystics in the crowd who insist aht any effort along these lines is
inheriently SOM. Or by the nut case who insist that physiology is irrelevant
because experience somehow has a psychic component.

[DS:]
The reason Pavlov is studied by every freshman
psychology student is because his observations about physiology have great
import to psychology. You are right, he didn't consider himself to be a
psychologist but that didn't stop history from judging him to be among the
best of them, and he most certainly saw and wrote convincingly about the
connection between physiology and behaviour. Skinner using the same
metaphysical assumptions believed that behaviour is the response to physical
causes. He didn't need to study physiology (although I have a dim
recollection that physiology was his stated major at Harvard) to believe
that, the positivists, Comte and Wundt influenced lab psychologists like
Pavlov and Skinner and most current scientists with their insistence that
behaviour has physiological causes. Skinner did thousands of experiments,
and it's the principle that I'm pointing too not the specific variable. He
believed he could condition any behaviour to any stimulus and, if memory
serves, once conditioned Eric Fromm to curse out loud in response to puffs
of air during a public debate.

[Krimel]
I was pointing to an error in the text you linked to us. I think it still
stands as an error. Pavlov was a physiologist. He won a Nobel prize for his
work in physiology. He did write and do studies relevant to psychology but
so did Descartes who is also studies by first year psychology students. I
think Wundt's influence on Pavlov, which you point out, was mainly to
reinforce Pavlov's insistence that we was not a psychologist. I don't think
Wundt had all that much influence on Skinner at all. Skinner did believe
that classical and operant conditioning takes place and shapes nearly all of
our behavior both inside and outside the lab. He is linked to the urban
legend of the psych class that conditions their instructor to lecture from
the hall outside the class by nodding and attending to him as he moved ever
closer to the classroom door. But again, you said he studied physiology
which he did not in any great detail. His bachelor's degree was in English.
Both his M.A. and Ph.Ds were from Harvard in psychology.

[DS:]
It certainly is my own theory that those who can recite the Gettysburg
address do so using learned reflexes. If you have another theory, one that
is better than saying, "it happens by magic". Please let me know for I have
never seen one. Your comment about clarity is fair and I will try harder in
future.

[Krimel]
OK but my point once again is that this is an improper use of the term
reflex. The study of both reflexes and memory are quite rich. There is
plenty of literature out there to look into before one sets about
constructing new theories to explain either of them.

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