On Mar 9, 2009, at 11:00:15 PM, Krimel <[email protected]> wrote: From: Krimel <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [MD] The Quality/MOQ dichotomy. Date: March 9, 2009 11:00:15 PM PDT To: [email protected] > >[Krimel] > >Intellect is a biological function that evolved in higher primates. It is > >what assures the survival of our species. Social behavior evolves even > >earlier. > >[Marsha] >This is confusing to me. You are saying that intellect, by which I >take you to mean thinking, is a biological function. Do you mean the >brain? Is the relationship a causation or a correlation. And what >of social behavior which you are saying evolved earlier? Is it >biological? How so? > >[Krimel] >Intellect developed in humans in the same way that speed developed in >cheetahs. Those who had more of it in the past were better able to scatter >their genes into the present. I don't think you could find much argument >that thinking is correlated with brain activity. Or that particular kinds of >experience can be correlated with increased activity in particular parts of >the brain. I am personally convinced that the relationship is very much >causal. I think studies of individuals with particular kinds of brain damage >show impairment of specific functions that are caused by the damage. There >are a variety of lesion studies in animals that back this up as well.
[Marsha] There is a difference between causal and correlation, and I'm still not sure which you think it is when it comes to thinking. You used both terms. If it's causal, is it the brain chemistry creating the thoughts or the thoughts manipulating the brain chemistry. A correlation would mean a reciprocal relation or interdependence. So I'm still confused what to you meant. Also you didn't exactly state anything definitive about social behavior, which you stated came earlier than thinking. Was it biological or not. It was difficult to know where the last sentence should be applied. The previous paragraph was all about social behavior and stated nothing about biological processes. [Krimel] I stated a few of what I consider to be obvious and indisputable correlations: thinking and brain activity and particular kinds of thinking correlated with particular brain regions. This is what Jill Bolte-Taylor called parallel processing. I further stated that I personally believe that these relationships are causal. I mean, more than just co-relations whose variation is dependent on some other variable. But let me clarify. I agree with the behaviorists on this point. I think ALL of human behavior results from three factors. 1. Biology 2. Personal history (past experiences) 3. Present circumstances Or Nature and Nurture united in the Moment. I think social and intellectual development in humans is so interconnected that it is impossible to pull them apart but given the behavior of related species, it is clear to me at least, that social behavior developed first. Social behavior in other primates is well developed and in many respects indistinguishable from human behavior. It seems pretty obvious to me that since we share much of this with our nearest relatives that it was present in our line well before humans even arrived on the scene. Social behavior is an biological-evolutionary survival strategy that is highly advanced within the primate order. But other species exploit this niche as well. From colonies of blue green algae, to coral to schools of fish to ants and bees, flocks of birds, herds of deer, pods of dolphins.... Many species find safety and security in numbers. More advanced forms of social species employ diversity of function among various members. This is totally biologically determined in insects and largely learned among humans. I think it is pointless to draw a line and declare that on one side of there is biology and on the other there is the social. And over here there is a line that separates absolutely the social from the intellectual. To repeat Case one more time, "Things don't cleave they shatter..." OK, let's take a reductionist view of intellect, let's call it evolutionary, based on science. Higher thoughts come from the cortex, perhaps the frontal cortex. This frontal cortex evolved to provide further refinement of control over information coming from the midbrain or lower which creates what we could describe as primitive feelings, emotions or passions. These feelings result from the body's interaction with the environment. This interaction is enabled by the sensory system whose function is to preserve the organism from the outside. This sensory systme, and the body as a whole, is made up of differentiated cells, each with its own function or specialization to preserve the whole. These cells which make up the body interact with each other through communication, thus aiding in survival. Some cells may be more critical than others but all work together in a society of mutual reliance and mutual self preservation. The self-preserving cells are entities whose construction is directed by a genetic code in the nucleus. The genetic code creates the cells to preserve itself. OK, so we've reached Richard Dawkins' concept of the Selfish Gene. Now, the double stranded DNA which makes up the gene is composed of base pairs which attract each other and thus allow duplicates to be made (resulting in cell division, RNA, proteins, and the rest on up). These bases attract and stick to each other through hydrogen bonds which form a bridge between them, and allows the DNA to replicate. This bridge is the product of forces which could be described as electrical attraction. This electrical attraction is caused by virtual photon exchange, as described by Richard Feynman. These photons do not have mass or charge but confer momentum. Farther down gets pretty confusing for me so I'll stop. In summary, our thoughts are the direct evolutionary result of the exchange of massless things between particles. OK, so now I've labeled it down as far as I can, am I enlightened, do I understand myself any better? All I have created is an endless stream of labels, do I call that true understanding? I should have stopped at the first one. The world is sitting on a turtle, which in turn is standing on a turtle below it, and that one on a turtle below it, and so on. It's turtles all the way down! Oh, now I understand it! Willblake2 Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
