On Mar 10, 2009, at 7:18:57 AM, Krimel <[email protected]> wrote: [Willblake2] In summary, our thoughts are the direct evolutionary result of the exchange of massless things between particles. OK, so now I've labeled it down as far as I can, am I enlightened, do I understand myself any better? All I have created is an endless stream of labels, do I call that true understanding? I should have stopped at the first one. The world is sitting on a turtle, which in turn is standing on a turtle below it, and that one on a turtle below it, and so on. It's turtles all the way down! Oh, now I understand it!
[Krimel] What sort of understanding are you looking for? What you describe is more of less our current understanding of one of the fundamental questions of philosophy: what is? In fits and starts, I periodically take a stab at exploring the second fundamental question of philosophy: how do we know? There we have it: physics and psychology. You call this reductionist. I suppose it looks that way from the Top Down. But it you start where is actually seems to start, at the bottom, it looks more like emergence, from simple phantom particles to sequoias. I see complex order emerging spontaneously from the simple and chaotic. At each level that you describing I can see self similar complexity and infinite detail. Or as Case once put it: "Jiggle the time scale and rocks roll. Mountains, crumble and erode The fractal forms of valleys flow All things cleave and shatter Zoom in, Zoom out, refocus." You see turtles; I see growth. You seem to be longing for some "higher" purpose or understanding to be handed down from on high. I see purpose and meaning growing out of and evolving from simpler beginnings. I am the current flickering of a flame that has burned without interruption on Earth for four billion years. Me and mine; the family of "man" and community of organisms of this planet; we are the keepers of that flame. God did not create us. We are creating God. If there is more to come, greater meaning to be derived from this veil of tears, then it will grow out of us and what we do now. We are in the process of creating higher consciousness, meaning, and purpose in the universe. We didn't start the fire It was always burning Since the world's been turning ..... We didn't start the fire But when we are gone Will it still burn on, and on, and on, and on...? - Billy Joel Will it still burn? Now there is a question to ponder. Does it matter? Matter to who? It matters to me and mine! Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Thanks for that Krimel. I don't think I am asking for something to be handed down from on high because I still have not subscribed to the hierarchical notion that MoQ seems to profess. Once I learn more about how evolution ties in with this concept, in a meaningful way, I may believe. Yes, possibly I am asking "what is". My question is what is "knowing", and does Quality help explain this. How do we know, and how do we know we know, comes later for me. If I were to take a scientific look at it (which is what I am most adept at), I would look in the brain (which I studied in graduate school, and published peer reviewed papers on). It appears that if it is neurological, my knowing is due to very subtle chemical fluctuations. Sodium and potassium travel across the cell membrane in distances that have to be measured at the angstrom level. Neurotransmitters are released and taken up in slightly larger spaces, but the chemical fluctuation is still very subtle. Is it this fluctuation that causes my knowing? If so, then it is no different from the earth "knowing" do to the fluctuation within this planet. Is the sodium ion a part of my knowing? It is certainly part of my brain. Or does this knowing start when there is a critical mass of neurons, tied up in a specific way, in my frontal cortex? If the frontal cortex is removed do we not know anymore? How much of the frontal cortex needs to be removed before we lose that knowing? Is it memory? If I wake up without remembering who I am, where I am, or where I've been, is this new knowing a different person, or is it still me? Do I start knowing from birth?, or in utero? Am I the same person day to day or reborn every minute as my body replaces chemicals in these nerve cells? I tend to believe there is some continuity to this knowing, but I cannot prove it without having an idea of what I'm proving. Experiences I have had led me to believe that my knowing is in that sodium atom, and in the nerve cell, and in the dynamic subtle flow of chemicals, and in my whole body and the way it interacts with the environment, and in the cloths I wear, and the food that I eat, and in the people I meet, and in the planet where I live, and... My knowing is all tied up in all of that completely, because I am all those things, I create all those things. I don't know how I do it, whether I control them, or am trying to learn how to. My knowing cannot be isolated to one single thing in this body, it is everything. I don't just think about Quality, I am Quality. Willblake2 Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
