Krimel said: I take Craig and possibly Pirsig to be saying, that there are relationships, processes, distinctions that exist independently of any conceptual patterns of them.
Dan replied: If there are relationships, processes, etc. that exist independently, how would we know? It's possible, sure. But it is a moot point so far as I can see. ...The levels aren't reality; they're a way of ordering reality. Again, a person can order reality any way they wish, but it will not be the MOQ. dmb says:I think Dan's point is an important one. Seems like a lot of misunderstanding follows from missing that point. It's probably the main reason why Bo thinks the primary empirical reality (DQ) can be equated with objective reality. It's probably the main reason why Krimel thinks pure experience (DQ) is something like the transduction of energy through the sense organs. It's probably why people expect to find some version of Kant's things-in-themselves in the MOQ. But this is just the metaphysics of substance talking. In the MOQ, our ideas don't correspond to any kind of pre-existing structure of reality. Of all the things one could say about DQ or undifferentiated aesthetic continuum, "structured" is NOT of them. In the MOQ, all our static analogues exist in relation to "reality", which is understood AS experience itself and not the "things" supposedly experienced. Put another way, the MOQ says that the idea of an external reality is a good idea, but it's just an idea, an analogue. Like all analogues, they exist in relation to pure experience, which is neither mental or physical, again, because "mental" and "physical" are among the analogues that follow from experience. It boils down to the difference between static quality and Dynamic Quality, between concepts and reality. "Reification" means taking an abstract concept and making it into a reality. When that happens, we say there ARE "distinctions that exist independently of any conceptual patterns of them". In the MOQ, concepts and distinctions are always static while the primary empirical reality is an undivided, undifferentiated continuum. It's a radically different picture of things. We live in a static reality of our own making so that conventional reality is one big intricate set of reifications. Not that it's all just a dream or whatever. These static patterns aren't hallucinations, they exist in relation to experience, the primary empirical reality and they work, more or less. But the MOQ is one way to see through that reality, to see our concepts of reality AS concepts. This is more or less what "Maya" means. It comes from Hinduism and means "illusion" but also "the power by which the universe becomes manifest". It's liberating to realize there is more than one way to "compose" a reality. Creative freedom becomes a profound thing in this picture. _________________________________________________________________ Express your personality in color! Preview and select themes for Hotmail®. http://www.windowslive-hotmail.com/LearnMore/personalize.aspx?ocid=TXT_MSGTX_WL_HM_express_032009#colortheme Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
