[gav] so you believe systems exist independently of the observer? an independent objective reality was discredited 100 years ago by quantum physics. pirsig revealed the constructed nature of SOM reality.
[Krimel] You have unwittingly raised and interesting point, which I am coming to suspect is the only way that could happen. You claim that "an independent objective reality was discredited 100 years ago by quantum physics." This is just not true. The QM dudes altered our understanding of the world of the very, very small but there is as yet no consensus as to what that might mean on the scale of the everyday world. There have been different explanations proposed and ATM none seems to be especially dominant. This is exactly the kind of situation that gives the lie to the idea that science is dogmatic. Not only are physicists unable to come to a consensus on the meaning of their findings but the world they are talking about is so completely alien to us empirically, that it is really silly for folks like us to talk about it much. It is really, really silly to set this kind of speculation up as a cornerstone of your thinking. [gav] the immediate present is eternal; it is outside time - time is psychological. time and space as independent structuring elements of experience is a kantian concept and is at odds with radical empiricism and pirsig and buddhism and taoism and physics etc [Krimel] Come on, gav, act like you have a clue. That is just a lot of nonsense pretending to sound important because you randomly drop in a few names. I bet it sounds better in a warm bath with a head full of shrooms. But try saving things until the next day and reread them before you hit send. [gav] your thinking pressuposes SOM - senses responding to an external (system dependent) reality - that is *subject experiencing object*. this is as non-moq as it is possible to be. [Krimel] I have been through this a dozen times with your cult leader. I have no intention of rehashing this with someone who doesn't have the juice to keep up. [gav] if you are here to argue with pirsig about the fundamentals of his work then i reckon that's kinda pointless, but i guess that's your prerogative. [Krimel] If I were here to argue with Pirsig this really would have been a waste of time. (BTW, Bob, my spam filter is especially sensitive and keeps blocking your messages... Try "Krimel, you Suck" in the subject line.) I have been especially disappointed to see how you and the Aw Gi have squandered the potential of his work on a bunch of new age foolishness. It is especially galling to have twits like you sounding all smug and self assured in their cluelessness. "Let's drink to Henry Miller and look for goddesses to defile." [gav] you thoroughly identify with SOM. do you realise this? [Krimel] Not at all; but you are welcome to peruse the archives. [gav] it is frustrating to go through all the basics that pirsig has explored much more thoroughly in his books. [Krimel] Yes, it is really frustrating to have some one pointing in the so many right directions and yet see people staring at blank spots on the wall. [gav] what do you agree with pirsig about? [Krimel] I think Pirsig has remarkable instincts to some the critical issues of the past century. Overall his two books have inspired my thinking as much as any two books I can think of. But that doesn't mean I am drinking the Kool-aide. He sees many of the issues clearly but when painted into a corner he gets things a bit tangled. His modifications of Taoism for example. His understanding of the importance of coding and encoding without grasping the significance. He explains of random access very well and then runs away from the implications. His sophomoric account of evolution. Until I came here I mostly ignored these as minor indiscretions but when I see how far off track these errors have led people I tend to get a little crabby. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
