Krimel --
A percept is the byproduct of perception, something perceived;
sense data.
That's like saying a sensation is a byproduct of sensibility, or knowing is
a byproduct of knowledge. Inasmuch as what we perceive encompasses value
sensibility and the intellectual concepts drawn from experience, why not
simply call the former "awareness" and the latter "precepts" and be done
with it? You and James are "taking relatively simple stuff and erecting
complex unintelligible verbiage out of it."
Not all sense data is of "otherness". When I am hungry or stub my toe
for example. I have no idea why you think there is a "metaphysical"
necessity for anything beyond a lack of food or a brick in the path
to account for my perceptions.
Could you stub your toe without the brick (otherness) in your path or sense
hunger without valuing food (otherness)? Sure, hunger and a sore foot are
unpleasant sensations. But pain and discomfort are not values, it's their
remedy that we desire and value.
I think the term subject is a bad one. If we take this whole
s/o business seriously it makes no sense at all to talk about "subjects".
And I certainly do not think the environment has much to do with
metaphysics.
How can you discuss S/O seriously without talking about subjects? I agree
that "environment" is the wrong term for objects or otherness. I used it
only because it seemed to be your vernacular. You told Marsha "We do not
have enough time to respond to the environment on the basis of reason," And
you said to me that "Value arises from the interaction of the individual
with the environment."
But reflex responses are not all the simple. When first discovered
it was thought that they could actually account for all of human behavior.
That was in the 1800s and it turned out not to be true but they do
explain a great deal of our behavior including the hot stove example.
Value is what we make of stimulation. From one especially fertile point of
view we are input/output systems. Sensation provides input. Output is
behavior.
There's that objectivist word "behavior", again. Tell me, Krimel, do you
ever respond to Beauty, Freedom, Justice, Excellence, and Merit? These are
values too, not just "behavioral responses". Value is what we feel, not
how we act. It's our subjective realization of moral or esthetic "goodness"
You can't measure value-sensibility behaviorally.
[Ham]:
...Inasmuch as I don't view Value or its realization as an organic or
synaptic process, I see little point in commenting on [a
neuro-physiological
analysis]. Besides, the philosophical ground is covered in the
discussion.
[Krimel]:
Right, you don't seem to have an aversion to the supernatural.
Dave does. He wants to keep the supernatural baby by renaming it
and drinking its bath water.
To cite the original cliché, be careful that you're not throwing the babe
out with the bath water. Much of what you academicians dismiss as
"supernatural" or "theistic" have a valid place in philosophy. Since all
metaphysical theory is in some sense speculative you are denying yourself an
opportunity to resolve the enigma of existence by rejecting it.
I plan to spend the 4th watching our local fireworks. We go to the
show and walk toward the blastoff site until a fireman tells us we are
too close and makes us back-up a few feet. Then we spread our
blankets, lay on the ground and watch the sky flowers bloom...
or I guess that's boom.
We did the same until a couple of years ago when the township ran out of
money to put on such displays. Now we watch them from New York or Philly on
hi-def TV. I hear they're renaming this holiday "Dependents' Day" in honor
of the Obamanation.
Now, there's a statement that's sure to bring on the fireworks!
Enjoy,
Ham
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