Greetings Ham,
I came to this forum as a student to learn a better philosophy of
life. I've learned many things, but hopefully not to play a
competitive game. Lila is a word that is sometimes called the game
of life, but I prefer to consider Lila the dance of life, or if a
game, then the hide and seek of reality.
Marsha
At 06:35 PM 7/6/2009, you wrote:
On 7/5/09 at 3:30 PM John Carl wrote --
Part of acknowledging a game in good sportsmanship, is acknowledging
one's opponent - that there must be AGREEMENT in order for the game
to have any validity. You can play alone, but it's not the same thing
as philosophy.
Sporting or not, I am earnestly looking for AGREEMENT. Frankly, I'm
not concerned that "the game" has validity as long as we understand each other.
You accede to the main thrust of my point by admitting you change
your presentation according to your conception of the correspondent.
And for me, that's what I mean by "we're playing a game" or "we're
indulging in an artform". Just to be clear upon two points you and I
have disagreed upon.
This is a philosophy forum, not an "art form". I adapt my
presentation (verbally) as best I can to the correspondent's
vernacular and worldview. The overall concept remains unchanged.
Now.
on to the rest, best I can....
[Quoting Ham]:
Yes. The first thing to understand is that all value is realized, and the
realizer is a subject.
So the "value" I realise is something outside of myself, which "I" the
realizer conceive of using my entire conceptual/perceptual apparatus and
deduce from... sensory data???
Is the first thing I need to understand yer basic SOM? Cuz I get that.
Been handed that way of thinking basically my whole life. Is that what
you are offering Ham? More of the same?
Yes, value is the realization of that which is beyond (i.e., other
to) the self. However, I prefer "self/other dichotomy" to Pirsig's
"SOM" whose meaning is ambiguous to folks here. "More of the
same"? I offer more than the MoQ, which is not the same. My
philosophy is based on an uncreated Source. Quality and Value are
perceived attributes of beingness whose existence depends on the
subject, hence do not quality as the primary Source.
[Ham, previously]:
While survival may be a value from the human perspective,
biological instinct and organic response mechanisms automatically
serve this purpose in simple organisms.
[John]:
"Serve this purpose" means "is valued by" in essence. Why do you change
terminology in the interest of confusion? It makes me question your whole
purpose in this game.
Why do you insist on rewording my statements to confuse the
issue? Would serve this "function" have made my meaning any clearer?
[Ham]:
Only man has the capacity to discern moral and esthetic values
and the freedom to choose accordingly.
Wrong. AND blatantly anthropocentric. Even my dog can choose
to go left or right. Even my dog knows when he's doing wrong.
Do you consider this choice a moral or esthetic value? Is the dog's
behavior a valuistic decision at all, or only an instinctual
response? And, yes, Essentalism is an anthropocentric
philosophy. I'm surprised you didn't know that.
But the values that drive man's behavior are not "universal" but
relative to his sensibility and the situation he confronts. Finally,
all values are derived from Essence,
Or God. Or Quality. Or Tao. Or the big turtle which holds the worlds
on its back. whatever . They're all postulated mythos blowin' in the wind
and the only question that matters to me is "which one is best"? Which
pertains to the quality of one's society, eh? The society that picks the
best mythos wins. Yay.
Is this how you play your game, John, by ridiculing your
opponent? If so, it's not worth my time and effort. I get enough
ridicule and contempt from Arlo and Krimel.
Go play your game in somebody else's yard.
-- Ham
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