On 18 Nov 2009 at 12:35, Arlo Bensinger wrote: > [Platt] > No problem there. But it's clear that your description is just that, > a description of what happens, not how or why it happens > > [Arlo] > Willful ignorance. Emergence describes "how". As to "why", emergence, > along with the MOQ, posits a why that is planless, un-orchestrated, > un-controlled, un-manipulated, and free. Theories of Emergence, I > agree, have yet to understand all this occurs as a RESPONSE TO > Quality, as Pirsig theorizes. > > [Platt] > As you point out, the MOQ posits Quality, a "controlling force," as a > reason for such changes. > > [Arlo] > Quality is no more a "controlling force" than the sun controls the > temperature of our planet. There is no willful manipulation, no > orchestration, and no intent. A "controlling force" is simply your > ongoing theistic drumbeat. > > What you seem to always miss, is that "control" eliminates "freedom". > If Quality "controls" things, then things are not "free", they are > mere machinations of Quality's Will. "Control", like the term you > propose below "produce", implies not only will and intent, but > orchestration and design. All things that pervert the MOQ into a > theism, and remove from the MOQ its beautiful core... "freedom to > response to DQ". > > And with this "freedom" inherent in the MOQ's explanation, is > "chance". Nothing ever "has to" or "had to" respond in any way with > certainty. All things that we see in hindsight were never "certain", > they were driven by the appearance of the unexpected (DQ) in turn > becoming value-preferences (SQ) when that unexpected had some "good" results. > > You seem so very intent on demanding a external agent that > orchestrates and designs, one that has created your particular > existence with some grandiose cosmic purpose and significance. What > you fail to see is that in doing so, you are eliminating the freedom > in the MOQ that Pirsig's brilliance has extended away from "man" and > down beneath the subatomic levels. You remove "freedom" to give > yourself "purpose". An awful trade-off, and one that is not the MOQ.
Nothing is eliminated or traded off. DQ is freedom, a productive force. "Although Dynamic Quality, the Quality of freedom, creates this world in which we live, these patterns of static quality, the quality of order, preserve our world. Neither static nor Dynamic Quality can survive without the other." . Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
