On 12/7/09 9:55 PM, "Ham Priday" <[email protected]> wrote:
On Monday 07 December 2009 9:55 PM Ham writes: Ham Well, I'm sorry that my "Idealism" is more than you can deal with. But if your ontology is based on the premise that existence is "prior to reality", I would suggest that you subscribe to Objectivism rather than Realism. The Essence of my philosophy is the uncreated Source which, by definition and logic, is not only self-sufficient but primary to all creation. No one here is arguing for "a reality without existence," although the latter is not essential to Absolute Essence. Moreover, your assertion that Realism is "a judgment about the reality of existence" is a nihilistic take on the objectivist position. It begs the question of how any other reality can be valid. Your response saddens me, but I am not surprised. Despite Pirsig's eloquent efforts to disparage subjects and objects under the banner of 'Qualityism', the majority of DM participants are really objectivists at heart. This is typically revealed when an extended dialogue on the fundamentals of ontology reaches an impasse. You and I have been around this path before, Joe, but your willingness to reconsider my position led me to believe we might avoid disappointment this time. You express your ideas well, and I've appreciated your inputs and insights. But "a meeting of the minds" is not to be. Have a joyful holiday season. Hi Ham and all, I agree ³a meeting of the minds² is not to be since I feel your interpretation of Dq/Sq is erroneous. My computer was not acting the way I thought it should so I called tech support. I paid for an operator to take over my machine by proxy. After an hour or so he commented ³Oh! That is what it is doing.² Then, he did something to the programming and at least during the session the computer acted like I wanted it to. I don¹t know if it will continue to operate as I expect, but I doubt it. I can do something with language and I don¹t know what? That leaves me in errorsville, and I don¹t know it. Ham The Essence of my philosophy is the uncreated Source which, by definition and logic, is not only self-sufficient but primary to all creation. No one here is arguing for "a reality without existence," although the latter is not essential to Absolute Essence. Joe How do you know that Existence is not essential to Absolute Essence? You would have to claim absolute essence for yourself. In order to know that you have to define ³existence² and then claim it is ³not essential to absolute Essence.² You deny that existence has meaning in relation to absolute essence, it is imaginary. Your metaphysics does not exist. Only the supposition that Essence needs no Existence exists. Having said that you can claim anything you want for Essence and there is no way to question it. It is a matter of your Faith. Logic is useless. With Existence as the essential reality DQ/SQ then undefined Existence comes before reality and any meaning of reality has to acknowledge Existence, and is verifiable DQ/SQ. Metaphysics, then, becomes a statement of the rational not the irrational ³uncreated source². I accept that I can¹t know everything. I find it tongue-in-cheek that you are posting to an MOQ site espousing DQ/SQ and then state: Ham ³Moreover, your assertion that Realism is a judgment about the reality of existence" is a nihilistic take on the objectivist position. It begs the question of how any other reality can be valid. Joe I reject idealism in favor of pragmatism. I accept realism in existence that accepts undefined DQ at a higher level than defined SQ. Nothing has no existence. However, the undefined DQ does exist. Are you trying to understand Pirsig¹s view of pragmatism or do you simply reject it in favor of your own idealism? Imho you have made a decision to find Dq/Sq pragmatism subordinate to idealism. You then accuse me of objectivism. I am sorry you put faith in idealism. You label my activities objectivism. I understand that you feel that existence contains no meaning in itself and evolution is bogus. This is odd on a MOQ website which supports evolution. Anyway the best to you, Ham. Since the mind does not exist in Pirsig¹s thought I have no problem rejecting a meeting of the minds. Have a joyful holiday season. Joe > The Essence of my philosophy is the uncreated Source which, by definition > and logic, is not only self-sufficient but primary to all creation. No one > here is arguing for "a reality without existence," although the latter is > not essential to Absolute Essence. Moreover, your assertion that Realism is > "a judgment about the reality of existence" is a nihilistic take on the > objectivist position. It begs the question of how any other reality can be > valid. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
