On 12/10/09 11:31 PM, "Ham Priday" <[email protected]> wrote:
< I do not have to define existence because it is defined by experience. Hi Ham and all, And, of course, experience is defined by existence unless you are experiencing the non-existent, which I think is called fiction, and then you have an experience of fiction and you are damned ad infinitum. > Joe > I reject idealism in favor of pragmatism. I accept realism in > existence that accepts undefined DQ at a higher level than defined > SQ. Nothing has no existence. However, the undefined DQ > does exist. ... Ham I'll return your question: As a pragmatist, how do you know that something you can't define exists? How do you know that the existence created by your own experience is "reality"? Indeed, it it "realistic" to assert that an indefinable "dynamic quality" exists at a "higher level" than a definable "static quality"? You accept this on "faith". I don't see that your stance on existential reality is any more valid or logical than my belief in ultimate reality. <snip> Joe Following the logic in mathematics 1 exists and the denial of 1 is 0. Logic requires definition. What about poetry? I cannot define myself, and I know I exist. Not everything I know is definable. Movement does not rely on a definition for existence. The act of a being that can with the emphasis on can. Movement depends on what you are looking at. If I have no experience of a thing I have nothing to gain by it etc. Logical games depend on essence. What I say goes and that is the way the game is played! If I put my faith in another¹s words we have to be speaking a common language, or I have some experience with his words. The assertion that there is something in experience that will always be undefined makes sense! When I look at the words for definition it seems the first question asked is what are they defining? If I have no prior experience with what is being defined I will not understand the definition. A definition puts into words what I am curious about and gives it a format beyond my knowledge of it. My desire to know more is that my experience is undefined. In SOM my experience is indefinable. In MOQ it is the level of evolution that becomes indefinable, but I know that not all things are the same. If I were to have no knowledge of the object at all a definition is like a foreign language unknown to me. It is the undefined, yet experienced that prompts a definition so we experience the undefined. Existence is not going to help. A definition merely objectifies what I already have a sense of what I want to make more objective. If I know nothing about what I am defining an objective word is not going to change my subjective understanding. Oh! A dictionary is a book on metaphysics. Metaphysics does not provide answers! The logic of physics is not totally capable of answering all questions. 1. I know what that means. 2. What just happened is unbelievable? I am much more concerned about #2. I may be killed, or I may be the happiest man alive. As with all knowledge about what I am doing I use analogies and metaphors to describe emotional experiences not literal words. Words are important is SOL yet L remains indefinable. Aristotle and Aquinas in their theory of knowledge by abstraction appealed to the presence of mind and will faculties of a soul for their theory of knowledge. After writing beautiful words set to beautiful music Aquinas denigrated his Summa Theologica to the value of straw. Not much food there. Words are always defined unless they aren¹t. Yet analogies and metaphors are necessary for the descriptions of my quality of life. I am a pig! Metaphorundefined yet still carries meaning. Imho Pirsig saw quite correctly that some words carry meaning while remaining undefined. Have you never been at a loss for words? Or cursed! In a tight situation, and you were understood? You may claim that philosophy is not about such things but pragmatism examines all experience. DQ the indefinable experience, SQ definable experience are two unequal horns in existence. Joe Ham > I do not have to define existence because it is defined by experience. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
