On Feb 16, 2010, at 4:28:01 AM, "X Acto" <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Mark, Mark: Perhaps there is another way to look at this. There are many forms of understanding. One could be to divide something up into multiple pieces like disassembling a car. One can understand the car in terms of something that gets you to where you want to go. Or a car could be understood in terms of its comfort. Ron: No arguement, comfort is a way to understand. But is it a high quality idea to value something or believe in something by virtue of the comfort it provides? It certainly could be a viable justification for belief, but I question the wisdom of making Pragmatic value judgements based on the comfort they provide. I think that is the main question, for me atleast, regarding the formation of belief in regard to religions. Mark again: You bring up a valid point, that is the significance of comfort. Here is where, perhaps, I get a little super-objective. Bear with me, the underlying basis for any belief is one of contentment. In this statement I include all beliefs such as science, history, and religion. We tend to believe in one political party or another for feelings of assuagement. We tend to favor one logical argument over another due to an underlying feeling of gratification. We change our minds, sometimes drastically, because the new way is more satisfying. Logic brings relief. We choose sports and tv programs and food for the same reasons. We try to avoid feeling uncomfortable or tormented. I know this may be an oversimplification, but it is how I dissect and analyze my reality. So Pragmatic value judgements are made based on whether they "seem" right, whether it is for survival, wealth, or compassion. I do not want to touch on religions since that has many negative connotations, and rightly so. Hopefully you will get an idea of what I mean by belief. Any belief can be questioned, any theory, any prejudice, any fact. This culminated for me when, being a scientist, I questioned its reality. I in no way seek to diminish any of these things, just put them in perspective. It is just a perspective of mine, and has no value outside of that. Mark: There is no problem understanding God (if you are so inclined), where the problem lies, is in conveying that understanding to another. You cannot break it up into little pieces, it does not take you anywhere, but in terms of comfort, it may be understood. God represents a feeling. Once it is objectified, it becomes confusing to relate. Dynamic Quality can be dealt with in the same way. It is perceived as an awareness, such as the awareness of beauty. It is perfectly possible to "believe" in beauty. When the term indefinable is used, it simply means that Dynamic Quality cannot be surrounded and shaped by words. How would you define your first awareness into this world? Maybe WOW? Ron: Thats a bit of a rhetorical question, I do not remember by first awareness, but, reflecting on it, I would think one would need a comparison to form a "wow". If I was surrounded by beauty at every moment, would it cease to be beautiful? Mark again: Yes, familiarity does breed contempt. My point was only that there are things that cannot be shaped by words. Words may come out of them, but not the other way around. I have often compared words to a net trying to draw-in the ocean of Quality. Mark: Yes, it is all beliefs, you are right there. But the question is: does the belief add something to your life? Are there things which add more than others? There are levels of belief for the individual, and it is useful for sharing. Ron: I think if that sort of attitude was more commononly embraced,that of questioning and weighing our beliefs, religion would'nt have the connotations that it does. But you see, more often than not, belief is used as a justification for our prejudices and thats something we, as MoQ'ers, Pirsigians, ect.. try to diminish in our lives. Mark again: Yes, justification is another attitude that provides comfort. If we can justify something, we feel we are right, and can rest easy. I am not religious in any orthodox way, and have never been to church, having been brought up in an atheist household. Perhaps this was a blessing. The righteousness of religion I find abhorrent, but I think most of it is out of fear. Cheers, Mark Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
