Hi Ian, Thanks for your response. I actually dislike discussing theism vs atheism. I think that MoQ is beyond the issue... and yet both sides strike an emotion within me. I have been both and now I am neither. I have found a place of peace in understanding of what some may call God and yet others would label me an atheist. It is nice to live in an age and country that does not kill someone for their belief or disbelief.
Bruce Ian Wrote: > Hi Bruce, I think that is precisely JC's point ... that the MoQ > doesn't have to consider itself any of these things > > (and incidentally "non-theist" is the label I too adopt, if pushed - > religious faith can be a problem, but god is a non-issue) > > Regards > Ian > > On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 9:56 PM, Bruce Underwood > wrote: >> >> Why does the MoQ have to consider itself theistic, atheistic or >> ant-theistic? I do not consider myself to be against theism nor do I >> consider myself to be for theism. If I have to label it in terms close to >> that, I would say that I am a non-theist. However, I totally believe that >> there is "Quality" without form that does create order where there would >> naturally be disorder. There is, IMO, purpose and direction in Quality. >> >> Bruce >> >> ---------------------------------------- >>> Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 14:42:40 -0500 >>> From: [email protected] >>> To: [email protected] >>> Subject: Re: [MD] The MoQ can't be atheistic >>> >>> Hi All, >>> * >>> * >>> Ramakrishna used to ask people who came to him for instruction, do prefer to >>> think about God with form or without form? >>> >>> I suggest theism is thinking of God with form, the Tao and DQ is God >>> thinking of God without form. If so, the MOQ is not just atheistic but >>> anti-theistic. >>> >>> Best, >>> Steve >>> >>> >>>>From the Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna >>> >>> *"Sri Ramakrishna to M:* "How are you getting along with your meditation >>> nowadays? What aspect of God appeals to your mind — with form or without >>> form?" >>> >>> >>> *M:* "Sir, now I can't fix my mind on God with form. On the other hand, I >>> can't concentrate steadily on God without form." >>> >>> >>> *Sri Ramakrishna:* "Now you see that the mind cannot be fixed, all of a >>> sudden, on the formless aspect of God. It is wise to think of God with form >>> during the primary stages." >>> >>> >>> *M:* "Do you mean to suggest that one should meditate on clay images?" >>> >>> >>> *Sri Ramakrishna:* "Why clay? These images are the embodiments of >>> Consciousness." >>> >>> >>> *M:* "Even so, one must think of hands, feet, and the other parts of the >>> body. But again, I realize that the mind cannot be concentrated unless one >>> meditates, in the beginning, on God with form. You have told me so. Well, >>> God can easily assume different forms. May one meditate on the form of one's >>> own mother?" >>> >>> >>> *Sri Ramakrishna:* "Yes, the mother should be adored. She is indeed an >>> embodiment of Brahman." >>> >>> >>> M. sat in silence. After a few minutes he asked Sri Ramakrishna: "What does >>> one feel while thinking of God without form? Isn't it possible to describe >>> it?" After some reflection, Sri Ramakrishna said, "Do you know what it is >>> like?" He remained silent a moment and then said a few words to M. about >>> one's experiences at the time of the vision of God with and without form. >>> >>> >>> *Sri Ramakrishna:* "You see, one must practise spiritual discipline to >>> understand this correctly. Suppose there are treasures in a room. If you >>> want to see them and lay hold of them, you must take the trouble to get the >>> key and unlock the door. After that you must take the treasures out. But >>> suppose the room is locked, and standing outside the door you say to >>> yourself: 'Here I have opened the door. Now I have broken the lock of the >>> chest. Now I have taken out the treasure.' Such brooding near the door will >>> not enable you to achieve anything. >>> >>> >>> "You must practise discipline. >>> >>> >>> "The jnanis think of God without form. They don't accept the Divine >>> Incarnation. Praising Sri Krishna, Arjuna said, 'Thou art Brahman Absolute.' >>> Sri Krishna replied, 'Follow Me, and you will know whether or not I am >>> Brahman Absolute.' So saying, Sri Krishna led Arjuna to a certain place and >>> asked him what he saw there. 'I see a huge tree,' said Arjuna, 'and on it I >>> notice fruits hanging like clusters of blackberries.' Then Krishna said to >>> Arjuna, 'Come nearer and you will find that these are not clusters of >>> blackberries, but clusters of innumerable Krishnas like Me, hanging from the >>> tree.' In other words, Divine Incarnations without number appear and >>> disappear on the tree of the Absolute Brahman. >>> >>> >>> "Kavirdas was strongly inclined to the formless God. At the mention of >>> Krishna's name he would say: 'Why should I worship Him? The gopis would clap >>> their hands while He performed a monkey dance.' (*With a smile*) But I >>> accept God with form when I am in the company of people who believe in that >>> ideal, and I also agree with those who believe in the formless God."" >>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>> Archives: >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft’s powerful SPAM protection. >> http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469226/direct/01/ >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >> > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469227/direct/01/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
