Hey John C, Thanks for answering. I agree Many capitalist-supporting Victorian values Pirsig cited have been lost including optimism, craftsmanship, and self-discipline in addition to those you describe. But having been lost, what has taken their place? Not much good, according to Pirsig:
"Sometime after the twenties a secret loneliness, so penetrating and so encompassing that we are only beginning to realize the extent of it, descended upon the land. This scientific, psychiatric isolation and futility had become a far worse prison of the spirit than the old Victorian "virtue" ever was." (Lila, 22) So where to go from here? That is the question. Any ideas? More comments below: On 21 Feb 2010 at 22:30, John Carl wrote: > Yo Platt, > > Platt > > What values underlying the capitalist system have been eroded? What > > are the values we've got now that will make a collapse of the system > > inevitable? > > > > > > Well it's a complex set that we shorthandedly refer to as "the protestant > ethos". Lemme see if I remember them (it's been so long since I've actually > seen 'em) > > -delayed gratification: Capital only accumulates if you don't spend it on > goodies. > > - refusing to steal: Why is it that if I go into a bank and rob $2000 from > a teller, that lands me in jail. But running up my bank card to 10 times > that amount, when I know I can't pay it back, is morally and legally > acceptable? > > - keeping your word: If I sign a contract for money on my house, I pay back > the money even if it doesn't make financial sense. > > - the ethic of working productively, making something useful as opposed to > pimping, running a gambling parlor or owning a bar. Although work is > involved in all occupations, unless a preference for the majority to do > something socially useful instead of socially destructive is at large, > society is going to degrade. > > That will give you a fair idea of what I'm talking about and I hope make the > point clear that these principled behaviors which built up the economic > system at one time, have been so eroded that the "moral capital" of the > nation has been irretrievably squandered. > > > Platt > > If your sq value set includes DQ as the free market does, I don't see the > > problem. > > > > > Well I have no problem with free markets. I agree, the freer the better. > But the accumulation of vast capital wealth into huge media conglomerates > which restrict competition - the big box stores, the McD's, the > homogenization of the American experience, has produced a system which no > longer experiences DQ because DQ is dangerous to the status quo. When > you're on top, you don't want change. Platt Seems to me the conglomerates you mention have plenty of competition. But, there's a problem when big government gets in bed with the banks, auto companies, insurance companies and other biggies to control them in "the public interest." Then stagnation really sets in and fights DQ tooth and nail. We all know how flexible bureaucrats are: :-) That's why Pirsig called European socialist cities "dull places." > > > But true quality can only be served by asking what is best NOW. Not what > > > was best yesterday. Yesterday's good was good, and understanding it's > > > meaning in the context of yesterday will help us in figuring out what > > > today's best is. But trying to figure out where to go by looking to the > > > past alone, is only going backward, not forward. Platt How does one determine what is best NOW? That's the question. Pirsig gives us some broad guidelines, but as this site has so amply demonstrated, applying the guidelines to specifics isn't easy. > > Platt > > Seems to me that conservative principles such as democracy, trial by > > jury, > > freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of assembly, > > freedom of travel, limited government, private property, etc. as > > established by the U.S. Constitution is best NOW unless you have > > something better to offer. > > > > > All those aspects you mention, I do agree are good. But they alone did not > prevent the problems we're in now, and they alone will not dig us out of our > hole. Radical measures are called for. Platt What radical measures would you suggest that haven't been tried and failed somewhere before? Here are a couple of ideas for starters. Free up human creativity and encourage DQ to flourish by getting rid of capital gains and income taxes, putting term limits on congress, and providing nation-wide education vouchers. > > Platt > > An objective analysis? How about a Quality analysis? To that I agree > > and as always look forward to your ideas. > Ah, but objective analysis is high Quality thinking. Especially objective > analysis with an eye to always improving the intellectual tools and patterns > used in analysing. Platt Except as our academic friends have taught us, there is no truth. And as Pirsig has taught us, scientific objective analysis is NOT high quality thinking because it ignores values. We can agree on one thing, however. We have our work cut out for us. Regards, Platt Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
