Hey Ham, I cannot think another thought this evening. If I am able, I will respond tomorrow.
Good night, sleep tight, and don't let the bedbugs bite, Marsha On Apr 13, 2010, at 4:58 PM, Ham Priday wrote: > > On Apr 13, 2010, at 3:17 PM, Marsha V wrote: > > >> This has been on my mind since this morning, so >> forgive me if I seem to respond too quickly. > > No problem. I'm still on line, so there's nothing to forgive. > >> I agree with you that the Buddhist's Emptiness does not >> represent a void or empty space. > > Good. > >> I read somewhere that the choice of Ultimate over Absolute >> was to indicate there was nothing concrete being implied. > > Nothing concrete is implied, unless you consider "absolute" a concrete > atttribute. > > I generally use "ultimate" in reference to Reality and "absolute" in > reference to finitude. Absolute, I think, also implies "unconditional'; that > is, free of relational conditions such as birth and death, dependency, > evolution, and otherness. There has to be a primary source for anything to > exist or be created. Essence, for me, is that "uncreated, eternal" Source. > >> I could not expect an individual mind to divide, define or know >> what is clearly beyond it. > > You said "to divide". Did you mean to say "to divine", as in theorize? If > so, why would you not expect a philosopher to divine an uncreated source for > the created universe? Isn't that what an ontogeny is? > >> Conscious agent versus a self? Maybe a consideration for another day. > > Nothing to be concerned about. "Agent" is the functional role of the > individual; "self" is the individual's identity. For me, the terms are > synonomous. > > [Marsha, previously]: >> I understand myself to be the flow of ever-changing, interdependent, >> impermanent organic, biological, social, and intellectual patterns. > > [Ham]: >> Such a collection of ephemera does indeed suggest "emptiness"... > > [Marsha]: >> That would be empty of independent existence. > > Hmm. But you said above that the patterns are "interdependent". That means > everything depends on everything else. Even without "things", that's a > cacophony, not an ordered universe. > > [Ham continues}: >> yet there is no cause or progenitor implied. > > [Marsha]: >> Conventionally both are implied, but no truth beyond their pragmatic >> existence. > > Does this mean you restrict your understanding to pragmatic truth? If so, > how can you be an MoQist? > >> Causation is the conventional point-of-view. With Quality, if >> Quality is the same as Emptiness, there is interdependency >> which is non-causal. > > Any system -- even a hierarchy -- is not immune from cause. How does it > follow that an interdependent universe is non-causal? > >> I think we must keep separate 'after experience judgments' from >> 'immediate experience value'. Measurement pulls us into the realm >> of static patterns, or conventional reality. > > It was Mr. Pirsig who posited Quality = Reality. I am only pointing out that > Quality is invalid without a qualitative referent. "After" vs."immediate", > by the way, also pulls us into the time dimension of experiential reality. > Isn't space/time a static pattern, too? > >> What builds conceptual knowledge but patterns of experience? >> What a game!!! > > The way you describe your cosmogeny, it's an endless circle dancing with > itself. It reminds me of Alan Watts on LSD. > >> I like the idea of approaching Ultimate Truth by discovering what is false, >> and I know I sound like broken record, but it is why I appreciate: not this, >> not that. > > If you cannot know what is true, how can you know what is false? > > Essentially speaking, > Ham > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html ___ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
