Show me what you got Mary. I've been trying to assemble an intellectual argument, but keep getting diverted by emotional responses.
I understand the tired remark. It takes a lot of effort and time. Steady as we go. Let your intellect shine! Jon On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 11:28 PM, Mary <[email protected]> wrote: > Jon, > > It's time to take it to the next level. Don't get stuck in the Social. > The > Intellectual Level is so much more fun. > > Mary > > - The most important thing you will ever make is a realization. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] [mailto:moq_discuss- > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Jon Bennett > > Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 8:00 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [MD] The Roots of Freedom > > > > Mary, John, Platt, well, everyone, > > > > Yes, the way god thing has been envisioned in the Orient, and in most > > cultures has been the basis of tyranny. You are quite right about this. > > > > Also, the atheism thing has been a big source of tyranny, and still is. > > > > But you make a very big, and very careless mistake in lumping in all > > religious beliefs together. There are fundamental differences between > > some > > of them-in their beliefs and in the political reality they gave rise > > to. > > > > My evidence will be forthcoming, to show why Christianity is unique > > among > > the world's religions, and why it has given us that unique social and > > political condition, including our rights and freedoms. > > > > Remember, tyranny has been the default condition for most cultures, for > > most > > of history. > > > > See you, > > Jon > > > > On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 6:12 PM, Mary <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Geez... I said I wasn't going to do this, but I guess you are baiting > > me. > > > :) > > > > > > For good or ill (and I think ill) at the time of the American > > Revolution > > > 99.9% of the people involved believed in God (or at least paid lip > > service > > > to the idea). So, if you make a political claim in that kind of > > > environment > > > like "inalienable rights from God", then who is going to argue with > > you? > > > Nobody in their right mind. > > > > > > The God thing is a form of tyranny. > > > > > > The "inalienable rights" you mention are not true and correct just > > because > > > God said so - though it's nice that he did. They are true and > > correct > > > because they are of high Quality. Why are they of high Quality, you > > ask? > > > Because these ideas work. They are practical, they are useful, they > > are > > > "fair". In the parlance of the MoQ, they are "better" ideas than > > some > > > others. They support their level and they support the levels below > > them > > > too. They bring stability to the system. > > > > > > Mary > > > > > > - The most important thing you will ever make is a realization. > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: [email protected] [mailto:moq_discuss- > > > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Jon Bennett > > > > Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 12:14 AM > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > Subject: Re: [MD] The Roots of Freedom > > > > > > > > Mary, > > > > Just a very brief reply and then to sleep. > > > > The idea in your that this God stuff isn't too thought out reveals > > an > > > > important difference between the Christian and the Moq, and many > > other > > > > world > > > > views. > > > > > > > > If I get a chance I want to start a thread on eoq tomorrow. But the > > > > Christian view is that God reveals truth to his creatures. Man and > > his > > > > reason does not and cannot legislate reality. Man's and his > > autonomous > > > > reason is not the starting point for the Christian. > > > > > > > > This is why Paul when addressing the Greeks at the Aeropagus said > > that > > > > the > > > > gospel was "foolishness to the Greeks". I'd like to share with you > > what > > > > Cornelius van Till says of this, but it will have to wait. > > > > > > > > But this difference is quite crucial for giving you the rights you > > > > have. If > > > > man gave rights, he could take them away. > > > > The whole idea of an unalieanble right, is that it is from God, > > that's > > > > why > > > > it most be acknowledged in and protected by law. > > > > > > > > And the Christian position is that this is the source of knowledge, > > > > God's > > > > revealed truth. And that makes a very crucial difference in our > > > > epistemologies, and it is why Christian philosophy is so radically > > > > different > > > > than those that start with man and his autonomous reasong as > > absolute. > > > > > > > > Nighty Nite, > > > > Jon > > > > On Wed, Apr 'k1, 2010 at 11:56 PnoM, Mary <[email protected]> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > [Jon said] > > > > > You have freedom, even the freedom to read these words, not > > because > > > > you > > > > > were > > > > > envisioned as a static pattern continually being transformed by a > > > > dynamic > > > > > pattern. This includes the freedom not to be arrested at will, > > > > dragged from > > > > > your house and imprisoned or tortured for your thoughts and > > speech- > > > > and all > > > > > the other freedoms and rights you enjoy and take for granted. > > These > > > > rights > > > > > did not arise and were not acknowledged in the East where moq > > ideas > > > > were > > > > > prevalent. > > > > > > > > > > You have these freedoms because you were seen as created in the > > very > > > > image > > > > > of God. And you were endowed by your Creator with these rights > > > > because your > > > > > life was seen as sacred. Not a static, certainly not a dynamic > > > > pattern, but > > > > > a child of the living God. That is the source of freedom, > > personal > > > > and > > > > > political. > > > > > > > > > > [Mary Replies] > > > > > Well, thank God for that! Funny how a higher level can use the > > > > givens of a > > > > > lower level to go off on purposes of its own. Really glad of > > that > > > > too, > > > > > since I wouldn't like to have to get up early on Sunday's to go > > to an > > > > > institution. Do you ever get the idea this God stuff was not > > thought > > > > out > > > > > too well? I mean, I'm not sure all this freedom was what was > > > > intended. > > > > > But > > > > > hey, I'll take what I can get! > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > Mary > > > > > > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > > > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > > > > Archives: > > > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > > > > http://moq.org/md/archives.html > > > > > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > > > Archives: > > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > > > http://moq.org/md/archives.html > > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > > Archives: > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > > http://moq.org/md/archives.html > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > Archives: > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > http://moq.org/md/archives.html > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html > Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
