Hello Jon, I am known for writing sometimes lengthy posts. I'm sure this can annoy people or cause them to skip them entirely. I don't blame them. To circumvent that I'll just put down a few bullet points. You can respond as necessary to whatever you disagree with or would like clarification on. I'll try to start from the ground up, logically.
There are 2 kinds of people in the world. Those who think people are basically good and those who think them basically bad. If you think they are basically good, you tend to believe in autonomy; otherwise, you tend to believe that people need to be controlled and told what's right and wrong (or has high and low Quality in MoQ terms). There is only one alternative reason why some could believe that people require religious control. If they believe people are basically good but still require religious instruction to know what's right and what's wrong, then they must believe that people are stupid. I believe most (though not all) people are basically good and are not stupid. Ergo, I do not believe people as a rule require religious instruction to know the difference between right and wrong. Quality is value and everyone is born with the capacity to know it when they see it. There is no need to instruct or frighten people into knowing what is right. Religion is a method of control. It tells you what's right and wrong. It is used by one group of people to control everyone else. It assumes those in the "everyone else" category require control. It assumes they are bad and do not know the difference between right and wrong unless coerced. I object to that. I think it takes away the need for personal responsibility and self-determination by implying that most people are not capable of such. Or, as my Dad used to say, religion is OK if you think you need it. Questions? Mary - The most important thing you will ever make is a realization. > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto:moq_discuss- > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Jon Bennett > Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 10:40 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [MD] The Roots of Freedom > > Show me what you got Mary. I've been trying to assemble an intellectual > argument, but keep getting diverted by emotional responses. > > I understand the tired remark. It takes a lot of effort and time. > Steady as > we go. > > Let your intellect shine! > > Jon > > On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 11:28 PM, Mary <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Jon, > > > > It's time to take it to the next level. Don't get stuck in the > Social. > > The > > Intellectual Level is so much more fun. > > > > Mary > > > > - The most important thing you will ever make is a realization. > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: [email protected] [mailto:moq_discuss- > > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Jon Bennett > > > Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 8:00 PM > > > To: [email protected] > > > Subject: Re: [MD] The Roots of Freedom > > > > > > Mary, John, Platt, well, everyone, > > > > > > Yes, the way god thing has been envisioned in the Orient, and in > most > > > cultures has been the basis of tyranny. You are quite right about > this. > > > > > > Also, the atheism thing has been a big source of tyranny, and still > is. > > > > > > But you make a very big, and very careless mistake in lumping in > all > > > religious beliefs together. There are fundamental differences > between > > > some > > > of them-in their beliefs and in the political reality they gave > rise > > > to. > > > > > > My evidence will be forthcoming, to show why Christianity is unique > > > among > > > the world's religions, and why it has given us that unique social > and > > > political condition, including our rights and freedoms. > > > > > > Remember, tyranny has been the default condition for most cultures, > for > > > most > > > of history. > > > > > > See you, > > > Jon > > > > > > On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 6:12 PM, Mary <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > > > > Geez... I said I wasn't going to do this, but I guess you are > baiting > > > me. > > > > :) > > > > > > > > For good or ill (and I think ill) at the time of the American > > > Revolution > > > > 99.9% of the people involved believed in God (or at least paid > lip > > > service > > > > to the idea). So, if you make a political claim in that kind of > > > > environment > > > > like "inalienable rights from God", then who is going to argue > with > > > you? > > > > Nobody in their right mind. > > > > > > > > The God thing is a form of tyranny. > > > > > > > > The "inalienable rights" you mention are not true and correct > just > > > because > > > > God said so - though it's nice that he did. They are true and > > > correct > > > > because they are of high Quality. Why are they of high Quality, > you > > > ask? > > > > Because these ideas work. They are practical, they are useful, > they > > > are > > > > "fair". In the parlance of the MoQ, they are "better" ideas than > > > some > > > > others. They support their level and they support the levels > below > > > them > > > > too. They bring stability to the system. > > > > > > > > Mary > > > > > > > > - The most important thing you will ever make is a realization. > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: [email protected] > [mailto:moq_discuss- > > > > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Jon Bennett > > > > > Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 12:14 AM > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > Subject: Re: [MD] The Roots of Freedom > > > > > > > > > > Mary, > > > > > Just a very brief reply and then to sleep. > > > > > The idea in your that this God stuff isn't too thought out > reveals > > > an > > > > > important difference between the Christian and the Moq, and > many > > > other > > > > > world > > > > > views. > > > > > > > > > > If I get a chance I want to start a thread on eoq tomorrow. But > the > > > > > Christian view is that God reveals truth to his creatures. Man > and > > > his > > > > > reason does not and cannot legislate reality. Man's and his > > > autonomous > > > > > reason is not the starting point for the Christian. > > > > > > > > > > This is why Paul when addressing the Greeks at the Aeropagus > said > > > that > > > > > the > > > > > gospel was "foolishness to the Greeks". I'd like to share with > you > > > what > > > > > Cornelius van Till says of this, but it will have to wait. > > > > > > > > > > But this difference is quite crucial for giving you the rights > you > > > > > have. If > > > > > man gave rights, he could take them away. > > > > > The whole idea of an unalieanble right, is that it is from God, > > > that's > > > > > why > > > > > it most be acknowledged in and protected by law. > > > > > > > > > > And the Christian position is that this is the source of > knowledge, > > > > > God's > > > > > revealed truth. And that makes a very crucial difference in our > > > > > epistemologies, and it is why Christian philosophy is so > radically > > > > > different > > > > > than those that start with man and his autonomous reasong as > > > absolute. > > > > > > > > > > Nighty Nite, > > > > > Jon > > > > > On Wed, Apr 'k1, 2010 at 11:56 PnoM, Mary > <[email protected]> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > [Jon said] > > > > > > You have freedom, even the freedom to read these words, not > > > because > > > > > you > > > > > > were > > > > > > envisioned as a static pattern continually being transformed > by a > > > > > dynamic > > > > > > pattern. This includes the freedom not to be arrested at > will, > > > > > dragged from > > > > > > your house and imprisoned or tortured for your thoughts and > > > speech- > > > > > and all > > > > > > the other freedoms and rights you enjoy and take for granted. > > > These > > > > > rights > > > > > > did not arise and were not acknowledged in the East where moq > > > ideas > > > > > were > > > > > > prevalent. > > > > > > > > > > > > You have these freedoms because you were seen as created in > the > > > very > > > > > image > > > > > > of God. And you were endowed by your Creator with these > rights > > > > > because your > > > > > > life was seen as sacred. Not a static, certainly not a > dynamic > > > > > pattern, but > > > > > > a child of the living God. That is the source of freedom, > > > personal > > > > > and > > > > > > political. > > > > > > > > > > > > [Mary Replies] > > > > > > Well, thank God for that! Funny how a higher level can use > the > > > > > givens of a > > > > > > lower level to go off on purposes of its own. Really glad of > > > that > > > > > too, > > > > > > since I wouldn't like to have to get up early on Sunday's to > go > > > to an > > > > > > institution. Do you ever get the idea this God stuff was not > > > thought > > > > > out > > > > > > too well? I mean, I'm not sure all this freedom was what was > > > > > intended. > > > > > > But > > > > > > hey, I'll take what I can get! > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Mary > > > > > > > > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > > > > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > > > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > > > > > Archives: > > > > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > > > > > http://moq.org/md/archives.html > > > > > > > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > > > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > > > > Archives: > > > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > > > > http://moq.org/md/archives.html > > > > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > > > Archives: > > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > > > http://moq.org/md/archives.html > > > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > > Archives: > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > > http://moq.org/md/archives.html > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > Archives: > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > http://moq.org/md/archives.html > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
