Thanks Mary, this is a good start. Been away all day and will have to wait till tomorrow sometime for a serious reply. But I want to focus on 2 or 3 of the points raised here and not get diverted by rabbit trails.
Back at ya tomorrow, Wait it is tomorrow! Later, Jon On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 12:40 AM, Mary <[email protected]> wrote: > Hello Jon, > > I am known for writing sometimes lengthy posts. I'm sure this can annoy > people or cause them to skip them entirely. I don't blame them. To > circumvent that I'll just put down a few bullet points. You can respond as > necessary to whatever you disagree with or would like clarification on. > I'll try to start from the ground up, logically. > > There are 2 kinds of people in the world. Those who think people are > basically good and those who think them basically bad. > > If you think they are basically good, you tend to believe in autonomy; > otherwise, you tend to believe that people need to be controlled and told > what's right and wrong (or has high and low Quality in MoQ terms). > > There is only one alternative reason why some could believe that people > require religious control. If they believe people are basically good but > still require religious instruction to know what's right and what's wrong, > then they must believe that people are stupid. > > I believe most (though not all) people are basically good and are not > stupid. Ergo, I do not believe people as a rule require religious > instruction to know the difference between right and wrong. > > Quality is value and everyone is born with the capacity to know it when > they > see it. There is no need to instruct or frighten people into knowing what > is right. > > Religion is a method of control. It tells you what's right and wrong. It > is used by one group of people to control everyone else. It assumes those > in the "everyone else" category require control. It assumes they are bad > and do not know the difference between right and wrong unless coerced. > > I object to that. I think it takes away the need for personal > responsibility and self-determination by implying that most people are not > capable of such. > > > Or, as my Dad used to say, religion is OK if you think you need it. > > Questions? > Mary > > - The most important thing you will ever make is a realization. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] [mailto:moq_discuss- > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Jon Bennett > > Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 10:40 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [MD] The Roots of Freedom > > > > Show me what you got Mary. I've been trying to assemble an intellectual > > argument, but keep getting diverted by emotional responses. > > > > I understand the tired remark. It takes a lot of effort and time. > > Steady as > > we go. > > > > Let your intellect shine! > > > > Jon > > > > On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 11:28 PM, Mary <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Jon, > > > > > > It's time to take it to the next level. Don't get stuck in the > > Social. > > > The > > > Intellectual Level is so much more fun. > > > > > > Mary > > > > > > - The most important thing you will ever make is a realization. > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: [email protected] [mailto:moq_discuss- > > > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Jon Bennett > > > > Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 8:00 PM > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > Subject: Re: [MD] The Roots of Freedom > > > > > > > > Mary, John, Platt, well, everyone, > > > > > > > > Yes, the way god thing has been envisioned in the Orient, and in > > most > > > > cultures has been the basis of tyranny. You are quite right about > > this. > > > > > > > > Also, the atheism thing has been a big source of tyranny, and still > > is. > > > > > > > > But you make a very big, and very careless mistake in lumping in > > all > > > > religious beliefs together. There are fundamental differences > > between > > > > some > > > > of them-in their beliefs and in the political reality they gave > > rise > > > > to. > > > > > > > > My evidence will be forthcoming, to show why Christianity is unique > > > > among > > > > the world's religions, and why it has given us that unique social > > and > > > > political condition, including our rights and freedoms. > > > > > > > > Remember, tyranny has been the default condition for most cultures, > > for > > > > most > > > > of history. > > > > > > > > See you, > > > > Jon > > > > > > > > On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 6:12 PM, Mary <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Geez... I said I wasn't going to do this, but I guess you are > > baiting > > > > me. > > > > > :) > > > > > > > > > > For good or ill (and I think ill) at the time of the American > > > > Revolution > > > > > 99.9% of the people involved believed in God (or at least paid > > lip > > > > service > > > > > to the idea). So, if you make a political claim in that kind of > > > > > environment > > > > > like "inalienable rights from God", then who is going to argue > > with > > > > you? > > > > > Nobody in their right mind. > > > > > > > > > > The God thing is a form of tyranny. > > > > > > > > > > The "inalienable rights" you mention are not true and correct > > just > > > > because > > > > > God said so - though it's nice that he did. They are true and > > > > correct > > > > > because they are of high Quality. Why are they of high Quality, > > you > > > > ask? > > > > > Because these ideas work. They are practical, they are useful, > > they > > > > are > > > > > "fair". In the parlance of the MoQ, they are "better" ideas than > > > > some > > > > > others. They support their level and they support the levels > > below > > > > them > > > > > too. They bring stability to the system. > > > > > > > > > > Mary > > > > > > > > > > - The most important thing you will ever make is a realization. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: [email protected] > > [mailto:moq_discuss- > > > > > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Jon Bennett > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 12:14 AM > > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > > Subject: Re: [MD] The Roots of Freedom > > > > > > > > > > > > Mary, > > > > > > Just a very brief reply and then to sleep. > > > > > > The idea in your that this God stuff isn't too thought out > > reveals > > > > an > > > > > > important difference between the Christian and the Moq, and > > many > > > > other > > > > > > world > > > > > > views. > > > > > > > > > > > > If I get a chance I want to start a thread on eoq tomorrow. But > > the > > > > > > Christian view is that God reveals truth to his creatures. Man > > and > > > > his > > > > > > reason does not and cannot legislate reality. Man's and his > > > > autonomous > > > > > > reason is not the starting point for the Christian. > > > > > > > > > > > > This is why Paul when addressing the Greeks at the Aeropagus > > said > > > > that > > > > > > the > > > > > > gospel was "foolishness to the Greeks". I'd like to share with > > you > > > > what > > > > > > Cornelius van Till says of this, but it will have to wait. > > > > > > > > > > > > But this difference is quite crucial for giving you the rights > > you > > > > > > have. If > > > > > > man gave rights, he could take them away. > > > > > > The whole idea of an unalieanble right, is that it is from God, > > > > that's > > > > > > why > > > > > > it most be acknowledged in and protected by law. > > > > > > > > > > > > And the Christian position is that this is the source of > > knowledge, > > > > > > God's > > > > > > revealed truth. And that makes a very crucial difference in our > > > > > > epistemologies, and it is why Christian philosophy is so > > radically > > > > > > different > > > > > > than those that start with man and his autonomous reasong as > > > > absolute. > > > > > > > > > > > > Nighty Nite, > > > > > > Jon > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 'k1, 2010 at 11:56 PnoM, Mary > > <[email protected]> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Jon said] > > > > > > > You have freedom, even the freedom to read these words, not > > > > because > > > > > > you > > > > > > > were > > > > > > > envisioned as a static pattern continually being transformed > > by a > > > > > > dynamic > > > > > > > pattern. This includes the freedom not to be arrested at > > will, > > > > > > dragged from > > > > > > > your house and imprisoned or tortured for your thoughts and > > > > speech- > > > > > > and all > > > > > > > the other freedoms and rights you enjoy and take for granted. > > > > These > > > > > > rights > > > > > > > did not arise and were not acknowledged in the East where moq > > > > ideas > > > > > > were > > > > > > > prevalent. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You have these freedoms because you were seen as created in > > the > > > > very > > > > > > image > > > > > > > of God. And you were endowed by your Creator with these > > rights > > > > > > because your > > > > > > > life was seen as sacred. Not a static, certainly not a > > dynamic > > > > > > pattern, but > > > > > > > a child of the living God. That is the source of freedom, > > > > personal > > > > > > and > > > > > > > political. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Mary Replies] > > > > > > > Well, thank God for that! Funny how a higher level can use > > the > > > > > > givens of a > > > > > > > lower level to go off on purposes of its own. Really glad of > > > > that > > > > > > too, > > > > > > > since I wouldn't like to have to get up early on Sunday's to > > go > > > > to an > > > > > > > institution. Do you ever get the idea this God stuff was not > > > > thought > > > > > > out > > > > > > > too well? I mean, I'm not sure all this freedom was what was > > > > > > intended. > > > > > > > But > > > > > > > hey, I'll take what I can get! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > Mary > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > > > > > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > > > > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > > > > > > Archives: > > > > > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > > > > > > http://moq.org/md/archives.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > > > > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > > > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > > > > > Archives: > > > > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > > > > > http://moq.org/md/archives.html > > > > > > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > > > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > > > > Archives: > > > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > > > > http://moq.org/md/archives.html > > > > > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > > > Archives: > > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > > > http://moq.org/md/archives.html > > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > > Archives: > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > > http://moq.org/md/archives.html > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > Archives: > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > http://moq.org/md/archives.html > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html > Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
