On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 12:32 PM, Horse <[email protected]> wrote:
> Here's the quote from Lila:
>
> "The Metaphysics of Quality resolves the relationship between intellect and
> society,
> subject and object, mind and matter, by embedding all of them in a larger
> system of
> understanding. Objects are inorganic and biological values; subjects are
> social and intellectual
> values. They are not two mysterious universes that go floating around in
> some subject-object
> dream that allows them no real contact with one another. They have a
> matter-of-fact
> evolutionary relationship. That evolutionary relationship is also a moral
> one.
> Within this evolutionary relationship it is possible to see that intellect
> has functions that
> pre-date science and philosophy. The intellect’s evolutionary purpose has
> never been to discover
> an ultimate meaning of the universe. That is a relatively recent fad. Its
> historical purpose has
> been to help a society find food, detect danger, and defeat enemies. It can
> do this well or poorly,
> depending on the concepts it invents for this purpose."
> [Lila. Chap24]
>
> Unfortunately, it looks like you've got it wrong Platt because this says
> nothing about "thinking" being a biological function. What he says is that
> intellect (thinking) pre-dates science and philosophy.
You conflated intellect with thinking and omitted Pirsig's key phrase,
"concepts it invents." Inventing concepts, not dividing the world into
subjects and objects, is thinking.
> He also says that inorganic and biological patterns are objects ("Objects
> are inorganic and biological values") so how can thinking be an object as
> you seem to believe? Can you poke it cook it or whatever else you might do
> with a lump of material stuff?
>
Thinking has biological value for humans. Without thinking the human
organism cannot survive. You can see it, hear it and manipulate it. I don''t
think you can taste it, however.
> Pirsig says quite plainly that thinkings historical purpose was to "...help
> a society find food, detect danger, and defeat enemies." and that it
> (Thinking/Intellect/Intelligence) is part of the evolutionary process of the
> MoQ.
Again you assume (thinking/intellect/intelligence) are all the same. You
conflate what is at issue.
> That it was prior to intellectual patterns breaking free from domination by
> social patterns does not mean that it was not in itself a separate level
> prior to the emergence of science and philosophy when it finally started to
> break free from the domination of social patterns.
>
Intellect was a separate level before it broke free from the social level? A
level within a level? Now you're really going off the deep end.
> This also undermines your and Bo's idea that SOM is the Intellectual level
> (what you and Bo would see as science and philosophy etc.) because it
> existed prior to these as is pointed out in the above section of Lila -
> "....intellect has functions that
> pre-date science and philosophy [SOM]". How obvious is that?
> So how can SOM be the Intellectual level when intellect, intelligence,
> thinking etc. all existed before these were around?????
>
So how come Pirsig said, "It was this intellectual level that was screwing
everything up?"
> This is one of the many reasons why SOM as the Intellectual level makes no
> sense and why both you and Bo have got it so completely wrong as Pirsig has
> stated on numerous occasions.
> As far as I can see, your motives for supporting Bo's interpretation are
> political not metaphysical, as shown by the last sentence in your post and
> Bo's motives are egotistical shown by the way he tries to convince others
> that Pirsig, the originator of the MoQ, is incapable of understanding his
> own work.
>
> And your motives are what? To be the ultimate authority on the MOQ? My
motive is to apply the principles of the MOQ to current events. Otherwise,
it's just an academic exercise which seems to be the purpose of many here.
Best regards,
Platt
>
>
>
> On 29/04/2010 16:45, Platt Holden wrote:
>
>> Platt]
>> Sadly, you win the prize for obvious nonsense.
>>
>> The misconception you suffer from is that "thinking" is the same as the
>> MOQ Intellectual Level.
>> In the MOQ evolutionary moral order, "thinking" is a biological phenomenon
>> that first occurred long before the advent of the S/O Intellectual Level.
>> It's primary purpose, as Pirsig explained, was to "help society find food,
>> detect danger, and defeat enemies." It invented concepts to accomplish
>> these
>> purposes long before the ancient Greeks decided on the S/O concept which
>> gave birth to the Intellectual Level. Since then, SOM has become an "end
>> in
>> itself" and is "screwing everything up," evident as today's socialist
>> Greece
>> goes down the tube with other European countries blindly following the
>> same
>> morally-vacant SOM downward path.
>>
>>
>
> --
>
>
>
>
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