Hi Horse, No, I see the problem more connected with language, and how the words we use are static patterns but have different meaning depending on an individual's history. I see the difficulty being a bundle of ever-changing, interrelated, impermanent, relative static patterns of value trying to discuss ever-changing, interrelated, impermanent relative static patterns of value.
I understand all patterns to be conceptual: constructed of thoughts, sights, smell, sounds, tastes, touch. Patterns are memory, patterns are the past, patterns are the known. I still understand the Intellectual Level to represent a formalized subject/object (SOM) manipulation of abstract symbols, whether they are concepts such as justice, neutrinos, or energy. Marsha On Apr 30, 2010, at 6:34 AM, Horse wrote: > Precisely Marsha > Do you now see the problems that are the consequence of seeing SOM as the > intellectual level. > It destroys the beauty and harmony of the MoQ. Pirsigs work is mangled almost > beyond recognition. > Intellectual patterns of value are the Intellectual level and vice versa. Not > SOM. If you go down that path then there are some serious consequences. > I'll get back to Platt later on today as I have a fairly packed day going > through someone else's remix of one of my more complex songs. > Who the hell said being unemployed was a life of leisure!! > > On 30/04/2010 09:43, MarshaV wrote: >> Platt& Bo, >> >> Now you two have me confused. I understand it to be that >> the Social Level is made of social-spovs, and the Intellectual >> (SOM) Level is made up of intellectual-spovs, and the Biological >> Level was made up of biological-spovs, etc., and that ALL >> patterns are conceptual. >> >> Wow! What a mess. >> >> >> Marsha >> >> >> >> >> On Apr 30, 2010, at 4:18 AM, [email protected] wrote: >> >> >>> Platt, Horse, Group. >>> >>> 29 Apr.Platt said to Horse: >>> >>> >>>> Your wish is my command. Again, you conflate intellectual patterns of >>>> value with the intellectual level. The two are separate concepts >>>> (thoughts, ideas). Intellectual patterns of value is a broad concept >>>> that includes all sorts of ideas other than SOM that were used to find >>>> food, detect danger and defeat enemies, most of them having to with >>>> the activities of various Gods and spirits. So intellectual (thought) >>>> patterns certainly did exist prior to SOM which wasn't a prominent >>>> concept until the ancient Greeks came up with the idea. >>>> >>> Great show Platt, this and your previous posts, I must limit myself and >>> have been busy with DMB and his "bulldog" Andre, but you made my >>> day. The MOQ must sooner or later get out of "intellect's" grip i.e. that >>> of conflating thinking - intelligence - with the 4th. level - but from the >>> intense "flak" it will probably be later.. >>> >>> >>>> As for your final question, SOM didn't create the intellectual level. >>>> A man named Pirsig did. Before him there was no "intellectual level" >>>> as such. >>>> >>> I'll have to study Horse's argument to comment this. The MOQ is a >>> new reality and it's not easy to sort out the steps toward it. There is the >>> Phaedrus of ZAMM view and there is the author of ZAMM's view, then >>> there is the horse-MOQ (horse-latin) view and finally the MOQ's view >>> that you promote. >>> >>> >>> Bodvar >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>> Archives: >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>> >> >> >> ___ >> >> >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >> >> > > -- > > "Without music to decorate it, time is just a bunch of boring production > deadlines or dates by which bills must be paid." > — Frank Zappa > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html ___ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
