Andre,
I do miss Bo. Because he kept the discussion centered on the MoQ's being
beyond SOM, and the MoQ's understanding transcending subject/object
metaphysical thinking, and as Wikipedia clearly states:
"Robert M. Pirsig's philosophy of the Metaphysics of Quality is largely
concerned with the subject-object problem."
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subject-object_problem)
Marsha
On Sep 3, 2010, at 1:53 PM, MarshaV wrote:
>
>
> Andre,
>
> To state it again, on the highest level I understand the MoQ as
> Quality(upatterned experience/patterned experience.) But from my experience,
> you may be correct when you say "reality is not composed of anything."
> Patterns are illusion, and even Emptiness is empty. The MoQ as explained
> intellectually is illusion, but one I think very useful in its explanation.
> And my interpretation of the Intellectual Level I also find very useful
> because:
>
> "One can then examine intellectual realities the same way he examines
> paintings in an art gallery, not with an effort to find out which one is the
> ‘real’ painting, but simply to enjoy and keep those that are of value. There
> are many sets of intellectual reality in existence and we can perceive some
> to have more quality than others, but that we do so is, in part, the result
> of our history and current patterns of values. (Pirsig, 1991, p.103)”
> (McWatt,Anthony,MOQ Textbook)
>
> And surely you wouldn't expect my understanding to change because dmb, Arlo,
> Ron, Dan or the Pope think differently. My mind doesn't work like that.
>
>
> Marsha
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sep 3, 2010, at 1:18 PM, MarshaV wrote:
>
>>
>> Andre,
>>
>> I understand the MoQ to Quality(unpatterned experience/patterned
>> experience). I understand static patterns one way, you understand them
>> another. Intellectual Static Patterns of Value are reified concepts and
>> the rules for their rational analysis and manipulation. Intellectual
>> patterns process from a subject/object conceptual framework creating false
>> boundaries that give the illusion of independence, or 'thingness'. The
>> fourth level is a formalized subject/object level (SOM), where the paramount
>> demand is for rational, objective knowledge, which is free from the taint of
>> any subjectivity.
>>
>> As far as I know intellectual patterns are as I stated above, and I have
>> seen no evidence to the contrary. Have you presented an intellectual
>> pattern that transcends a subject/object representation of reality,
>> excluding art which may use intellectual patterns but also makes use of
>> inorganic, biological and social patterns and often goes beyond. Where is
>> your evidence? Let's see you demonstrate an intellectual pattern that does
>> not reify concepts, that does not create a self involved in analyzing such
>> concepts, or does not represent the rules for such manipulation? You cannot
>> do it, because the minute you've begun you have divided and formed an object
>> and an analyzing self.
>>
>>
>> Marsha
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sep 3, 2010, at 12:50 PM, Andre Broersen wrote:
>>
>>> Marsha to Andre:
>>>
>>> "As mentioned above, Pirsig considers any philosophy that asserts that
>>> reality is composed from mind or matter or a combination of both is an SOM
>>> philosophy."
>>> (McWatt, PhD Thesis 2005, p119)
>>>
>>> Andre:
>>> So what are you saying Marsha? Or are you, as ever, continuing your
>>> soliloquize?
>>>
>>> The point of the whole thing is that reality is to be found in
>>> EXPERIENCE...and as soon as you are trying to find it and have found it, it
>>> is gone. Reality isn't 'composed' of anything. Do you need your SOL shit to
>>> have that confirmed? Christ almighty, for fuck sake, do not bother us with
>>> the 'I miss Bo' crap!
>>>
>>> Pirsig 'observed' in passing...what had happened (and he named it SOM) and
>>> you, and Bo, and Mary have stuck to that as Revelation itself. For goodness
>>> sake...this is the MOQ. Some on this list have passed that subject-object
>>> stuff long, long ago...as certainly dmb and Arlo, Ron and Dan are trying to
>>> make clear. ( of course I have missed people...that is the intellectual
>>> level for ya).
>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
>>
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