On Sep 4, 2010, at 11:47 AM, Mary wrote: > Hi Marsha, > > ... > The fourth level is a formalized >> subject/object level (SOM), where the paramount demand is for rational, >> objective knowledge, which is free from the taint of any subjectivity. > > What you are saying seems in accord with my view. Would you agree with > this? > > The fourth level is a formalized subject/object level (SOM), where the > paramount demand is for rational objective knowledge, which denies the > existence of Quality.
Hi Mary, Quality being value? Quality being experience? Quality as Emptiness? I cannot agree with your "which denies the existence of Quality." Mr. Pirsig, himself, has used intellect to explain the Quality. My understanding of Quality is as unpatterned experience/patterned experience; it is not the descriptions or discussions of it. But maybe if you would elaborate, I might have more to consider. Marsha >> Hi Mary, >> >> Yes, 'concept' is a reified concept too. In Buddhism, the last word on >> Emptiness is that 'Emptiness, too, is empty.' It seems to me that it >> is presenting the notion that all the talk of emptiness has been a >> reification, and in the end Emptiness is empty of independent >> existence, that it cannot be isolated as an independent object of >> analysis. Aside from Dynamic Quality, it is all static patterns of >> value, but I understand the patterns in the Intellectual Level to be >> reified concepts and the rules for their rational analysis and >> manipulation. Intellectual patterns process from a subject/object >> conceptual framework creating false boundaries that give the illusion >> of independence, or 'thingness'. The fourth level is a formalized >> subject/object level (SOM), where the paramount demand is for rational, >> objective knowledge, which is free from the taint of any subjectivity. >> >> >> Marsha >> >> >> >> >> On Sep 4, 2010, at 10:37 AM, Mary wrote: >> >>>> Marsha: >>>> Radical Empiricism is a reified concept. >>>> >>>> >>> >>> Hi Marsha, >>> >>> One could add that the concept of 'concepts' is a reified concept >> too. >>> >>> Best, >>> Mary >>> >>>> >>>> On Sep 3, 2010, at 5:44 PM, david buchanan wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Marsha said: >>>>> I do miss Bo. Because he kept the discussion centered on the MoQ's >>>> being beyond SOM, and the MoQ's understanding transcending >>>> subject/object metaphysical thinking, and as Wikipedia clearly >> states: >>>> "Robert M. Pirsig's philosophy of the Metaphysics of Quality is >> largely >>>> concerned with the subject-object problem." ...And surely you >> wouldn't >>>> expect my understanding to change because dmb, Arlo, Ron, Dan or the >>>> Pope think differently. My mind doesn't work like that. >>>> ...Intellectual Static Patterns of Value are reified concepts and >> the >>>> rules for their rational analysis and manipulation. Intellectual >>>> patterns process from a subject/object conceptual framework creating >>>> false boundaries that give the illusion of independence, or >>>> 'thingness'. The fourth level is a formalized subject/object level >>>> (SOM), where the paramount demand is for rational, objective >> knowledge, >>>> which is free from the taint of any subjectivity. As far as I know >>>> intellectual patterns are as I stated above, and >>>> I have seen no evidence to the contrary. ..Where is your evidence? >>>> Let's see you demonstrate an intellectual pattern that does not >> reify >>>> concepts, that does not create a self involved in analyzing such >>>> concepts, or does not represent the rules for such manipulation? >> You >>>> cannot do it, because the minute you've begun you have divided and >>>> formed an object and an analyzing self. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> dmb says: >>>>> >>>>> This thread began with the evidence you're asking for and those >>>> quotes from James's biographer were centered on going beyond SOM. >>>> Pirsig and James are saying that subjects and objects are secondary >>>> concepts that have been reified. (Where did you ever get the idea >> that >>>> intellectual patterns ARE reified by definition? Concepts are not >> the >>>> problem, reification is.) Reification is the whole difference >> between >>>> SOM and the MOQ. In the former subjects and objects are reified and >> in >>>> the latter they are not. In the former they are not just concepts >> but >>>> in the latter they are just concepts. Radical empiricism is already >> a >>>> demonstration of an intellectual pattern that does not reify >> concepts. >>>> I mean, everything you're asking for was already in the initial >> post. >>>> Maybe you should read it again, but much more slowly and >> carefully.dmb >>>> says: Yes, Pirsig quotes James on this point and he equates his own >>>> Quality with James's "pure experience". In his second book Pirsig >>>> explicitly identifie >>>> s with James's radical empiricism but he was already saying the same >>>> thing back in ZAMM. >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ___ >>>> >>>> >>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>> Archives: >>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>> >>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>> Archives: >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >> >> >> >> ___ >> >> >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org/md/archives.html > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html ___ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
