Hi Mary, Yes, 'concept' is a reified concept too. In Buddhism, the last word on Emptiness is that 'Emptiness, too, is empty.' It seems to me that it is presenting the notion that all the talk of emptiness has been a reification, and in the end Emptiness is empty of independent existence, that it cannot be isolated as an independent object of analysis. Aside from Dynamic Quality, it is all static patterns of value, but I understand the patterns in the Intellectual Level to be reified concepts and the rules for their rational analysis and manipulation. Intellectual patterns process from a subject/object conceptual framework creating false boundaries that give the illusion of independence, or 'thingness'. The fourth level is a formalized subject/object level (SOM), where the paramount demand is for rational, objective knowledge, which is free from the taint of any subjectivity.
Marsha On Sep 4, 2010, at 10:37 AM, Mary wrote: >> Marsha: >> Radical Empiricism is a reified concept. >> >> > > Hi Marsha, > > One could add that the concept of 'concepts' is a reified concept too. > > Best, > Mary > >> >> On Sep 3, 2010, at 5:44 PM, david buchanan wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> >>> Marsha said: >>> I do miss Bo. Because he kept the discussion centered on the MoQ's >> being beyond SOM, and the MoQ's understanding transcending >> subject/object metaphysical thinking, and as Wikipedia clearly states: >> "Robert M. Pirsig's philosophy of the Metaphysics of Quality is largely >> concerned with the subject-object problem." ...And surely you wouldn't >> expect my understanding to change because dmb, Arlo, Ron, Dan or the >> Pope think differently. My mind doesn't work like that. >> ...Intellectual Static Patterns of Value are reified concepts and the >> rules for their rational analysis and manipulation. Intellectual >> patterns process from a subject/object conceptual framework creating >> false boundaries that give the illusion of independence, or >> 'thingness'. The fourth level is a formalized subject/object level >> (SOM), where the paramount demand is for rational, objective knowledge, >> which is free from the taint of any subjectivity. As far as I know >> intellectual patterns are as I stated above, and >> I have seen no evidence to the contrary. ..Where is your evidence? >> Let's see you demonstrate an intellectual pattern that does not reify >> concepts, that does not create a self involved in analyzing such >> concepts, or does not represent the rules for such manipulation? You >> cannot do it, because the minute you've begun you have divided and >> formed an object and an analyzing self. >>> >>> >>> dmb says: >>> >>> This thread began with the evidence you're asking for and those >> quotes from James's biographer were centered on going beyond SOM. >> Pirsig and James are saying that subjects and objects are secondary >> concepts that have been reified. (Where did you ever get the idea that >> intellectual patterns ARE reified by definition? Concepts are not the >> problem, reification is.) Reification is the whole difference between >> SOM and the MOQ. In the former subjects and objects are reified and in >> the latter they are not. In the former they are not just concepts but >> in the latter they are just concepts. Radical empiricism is already a >> demonstration of an intellectual pattern that does not reify concepts. >> I mean, everything you're asking for was already in the initial post. >> Maybe you should read it again, but much more slowly and carefully.dmb >> says: Yes, Pirsig quotes James on this point and he equates his own >> Quality with James's "pure experience". In his second book Pirsig >> explicitly identifie >> s with James's radical empiricism but he was already saying the same >> thing back in ZAMM. >>> >> >> >> >> ___ >> >> >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org/md/archives.html > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html ___ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
