Hi Horse, Like many other things, we have a difference of opinion on what it means "to know." So I'll leave it at that.
Regards, Platt On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 8:36 AM, Horse <[email protected]> wrote: > Hi Platt > > > On 12/12/2010 21:25, Platt Holden wrote: > >> Hi Horse, >> >> Our difference seems to be a difference in the meaning of "knowledge" and >> "understanding." >> > > Both are intellectual patterns (words) which refer to other intellectual > patterns (static reality) as opposed to pre-conceptual and pre-intellectual > experience (mystic reality). > Knowledge and understanding are post-experiential and stem from prior > experience. To confuse the pre-conceptual experience of mystic reality with > the post-experience concepts of knowledge and understanding is where the > problem lies. > > > You appear to consider them only pointing to static intellectual patterns >> of value. >> > > Not necessarily. The words we use, the analogies, metaphors etc. we employ > may also point to the mystic reality, but they are still post-experience. > Knowledge/understanding of or about experience are still static patterns. > They are pointers to something and not the !?*^*(#_#)*^*?! that is being > pointed to. By using the terms knowledge and understanding when referring to > mystic reality you are confusing the two. To even use the term 'mystic > reality' is to pattern what is unpatterned and free of concepts or > knowledge! > Mystic reality (DQ) has no concepts or patterns - it is pure, undivided and > immediate value/experience. As soon as you start applying concepts or words > you have left this reality behind. > > > I see them as also pointing to aesthetic experience prior to the formation >> of the static patterns of value, that is, knowledge of Dynamic value before >> descriptive words. >> > > Here again is the misunderstanding. Unpatterned, immediate experience has > no analogues or concepts. These always occur after the reality. Experience > that can be known, expressed or understood is not the actual experience of > mystic reality. > > > You described this Dynamic value below in referring to it is as a wordless >> state of being >> "engrossed" in pure experience before being dropped "back into the static >> world" of words and analogies. >> > > Yes. I have also said that I'm off somewhere else. In a trance-like state. > Gone! Away with the fairies. Spaced out. Tranced. I think the term used in > Zen-Buddhism is mu-shin or no mind. > > > I consider this "engrossment" to be direct aesthetic knowledge of pure >> reality. >> > > Yes. I agree. And it is not as difficult to achieve as some would have you > believe. One way is to close your eyes, sit back and drift off. > > > Or, as Huang Po put it: Here it is -- right now. Start thinking about it >> and you miss it." This knowledge "without conceptual distinctions" is >> aesthetic rather than intellectual, cited by Northrop and implicit when you >> are musically "in the zone." >> > > But it is not knowledge or knowing - these come after the experience. What > you are trying to do is to dump the state of knowing and just experience. > The moment is not about knowing but experiencing, which is why there are no > conceptual distinctions such as knowing/not knowing. You just are. You are > here, in the moment. > All this talk about knowing and understanding is peripheral to pure > experience and one of the main reasons why I rarely talk about it - there's > no point. It just confuses. > > Cheers Platt > > > > Horse > > > -- > > "Without music to decorate it, time is just a bunch of boring production > deadlines or dates by which bills must be paid." > — Frank Zappa > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html > Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
