Hi DMB with Marsha referenced, Let's take this apart one piece at a time.
[dmb] I'm not sure who said to dmb: [Mary] It was me. [Mary before] If static latches are never-changing, somebody should be able to name one. ...Nothing we can name is permanent, ergo 'ever changing' is completely correct. Maybe some things just take longer to change than others so that they appear to be permanent? Permanence is an illusion just like subjects and objects are an illusion. [to which dmb replied] The problem with this complaint is that nobody said that static patterns are never-changing or permanent... [Mary] The reason for my question refers back to a series of posts last week in which Marsha's statement that SPOVs are ever-changing received strenuous objection from yourself, Andre, and perhaps others. In an attempt to understand why Marsha's statement should be attacked I asked the obvious question, which is, that if you don't believe SPOVs are ever-changing, then that must mean you think they are unchanging. Now you say, much to my relief, that you do not believe that either, so I really have to wonder what all the fuss was about with Marsha? You go on to write a very eloquent explanation of how 'static' does not mean fixed and immutable that I am sure Marsha would be proud of. As I see it, there is no disagreement here and never was. Marsha was never conflating DQ with SQ and never saying SPOVs were anything but temporary. So, again I ask, what's all the fuss? Maybe it's this? [dmb] To say that static patterns are ever-changing is to say that we can built a motorcycle out of butter and steam. That'll never work and it makes a big mess too. [Mary] Well, no. Nobody said you could make a motorcycle out of butter and steam or any other inappropriate materials. Where did that come from? I don't think Marsha thinks this and I know I do not. This seems to be some kind of straw-man set up with the intent to discredit Marsha. I guess if you say it loud enough and long enough somebody might actually believe that's what she thinks? [dmb] I'm just amazed that the definition of "static" should be a problem. And I'm even more amazed that people who have supposedly read Pirsig's books would define "static" to mean "permanently fixed and eternal". [Mary] Me too, though given the vociferous objections to Marsha's statement that SPOVs are "ever-changing", that is the only logical alternative for people opposed to Marsha. [dmb continued] Mary, for example, thinks I need to explain how the phrase "everything gets known by something" could possibly be related to the word "noetic". Really? [Mary] You misunderstood here. I did not ask how the phrase is related to the word noetic. You used that phrase in a refutation of my statement to Arlo: Mary said to Arlo: I'm exposing the idea that Pirsig's MoQ offers a metaphysics with much greater explanatory power than James'. James' ideas are provincial... ... and I was (and still would) like to know how telling me that "everything gets known by something" works to refute my statement. There is possibly an interesting conversation in there somewhere. The rest of the next couple of paragraphs is related to your initial misunderstanding which should be cleared up now without extra comment. [dmb] If we put that phrase next to the standard dictionary definition, then I would have thought the meaning would be obvious to anyone. noetic - adjective: of or relating to mental activity or the intellect. ORIGIN mid 17th cent.: from Greek noetikos, from noetos 'intellectual,' from noein 'perceive.' The word just refers to "perception" to "knowing" to "knowledge" and the phrase in question was "everything gets KNOWN by something". How could anyone fail to see the connection? Even if you have to look up the word and learn it for the first time. How long could that take? Less than a minute, for sure. I have no patience for that sort of thing. Who can't think their way through that little problem? Be serious! Best, Mary Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
