Hi Dan, I've changed the title to something more appropriate.
>> Yes, How? What did they both do that meant they experienced Dynamic Quality? > > Dan: > Doing something doesn't translate into knowing how it occurs. You are > changing the question from a how to a what. Doing something in this case, does translate into knowing how it occurs. That is the only answer you can give. The only way to know what Dynamic Quality is, is to experience it for yourself. So how does someone experience Dynamic Quality? This is what I am getting at. The MOQ says that you can experience Dynamic Quality by getting static quality perfect. That said I think the confusion here is with two 'hows' of Dynamic Quality. There could be two questions, that I could think of, of 'how'. How does Dynamic Quality exist? Which does not have an intellectual answer that we can really talk about on MD, and 'How do I experience Dynamic Quality?' Which does have an answer. If, someone asks: "How do I experience riding a bike?" Well then one would say - go and ride a bike. Likewise, if someone asks: "How do I experience Dynamic Quality?" I think this is an answerable question. Simply saying go out and experience. Doesn't really get to the heart of the matter. In my opinion. Experience, what? Static quality? Dynamic Quality? What? There is some thing which links these two things together. Every thing is static quality. If I look around and all I see is things, then how do I experience Dynamic Quality? What is Dynamic Quality? These to me, are genuine questions and have a very powerful Metaphysical answer to them. You can experience Dynamic Quality by getting things perfect. If you like, here is a quote from Lila where Pirsig uses the term perfect the same way I do: "For example, you would guess from the literature on Zen and its insistence on discovering the 'unwritten dharma' that it would be intensely anti-ritualistic, since ritual is the 'written dharma.' But that isn't the case. The Zen monk's daily life is nothing but one ritual after another, hour after hour, day after day, all his life. They don't tell him to shatter those static patterns to discover the unwritten dharma. They want him to get those patterns perfect!" >> David: >> I agree but I'm not asking where it comes from, I'm asking how it appears. > > Dan: > Well, David, if we knew how it appears it wouldn't be a surprise, now > would it. And you certainly did ask where it comes from! As I said earlier, of course Dynamic Quality cannot be defined and saying how it exists is a definition and therefore not Dynamic Quality. But that is not what I am talking about. How does one experience Dynamic Quality? This is what I am talking about and this is something we can very much discuss, and in my view, the MOQ has a very powerful Metaphysical answer to it. The oldest idea known to man. Rta. You can experience Dynamic Quality by getting things perfect. >> David: >> I agree. But this is describing Dynamic Quality itself and not a finger >> pointing to show how to experience it. One of those you cannot describe, the >> other, you can. > > Dan: > I am sorry, David. I think you're mistaken. I don't see that I was > describing anything. If I was doing any describing at all, it would be > what "it" is not, not what "it" is. I didn't think you were describing anything either. I was actually just agreeing with you and pointing out what I have written above. And that is, that of course you cannot describe Dynamic Quality but you can point to it by telling someone what they can do to experience it. Both Poincare and the Zen Archer both did something over and over and over again until their minds slowed down and eventually stopped, yes? >> David: >> But this time I think that you are describing how it appears. I agree with >> this. It appears when we desolve into static endeavors that demand our full >> attention and negate the patterns of 'me'. That is, when we perfect static >> quality, it disappears and there is nothing but Dynamic Quality. > > Dan: > Yes, it appears "when," but that is not how. How it appears is the mystery. That is how it appears. It appears as a result of the perfection static quality. And I know I should be careful here, so I will reiterate. When we talk of 'appearing' we are talking about something coming out from 'behind' something. Therefore, we are alluding to the fact that static quality disappears and reveals Dynamic Quality. I do not make the claim that we can know, intellectually, how it Exists. >> David: >> This is what both the Zen Archer and the Mathematician had in common. They >> both went over something, again and again and again. They went over things >> so many times until they had completely 'forgot' they were even doing them >> and... Dynamic Quality. > > Dan: > I am not sure this is exactly right though. If it were, the master > would have praised Herrigal's archery instead of booting him out of > class. I disagree. I've read the book and the Master kicked him out of the class because he wasn't doing it the right way and disrespecting the Dharma. That is, he was looking for a shortcut. This isn't perfecting anything. This is trying to take the easy way out and definitely not Zen. > Whatever the mathematician has in common with the practice of > zen is entirely accidental (incidental?), in my opinion. I disagree and I think you are missing one of the most beautiful aspects of the MOQ. I've heard Pirsig use the example of Picasso. His paintings were really out there for his time. But if you look at his earlier work, he was a very good traditional artist. He wasn't just bucking the traditional ways for no good reason. It was through his perfection of these earlier techniques that he found a better way. > Right practice is the key, not just practice. If a person isn't > practicing in the right fashion, no amount of practice will bring them > any closer to "it." It is also important to associate with right > people. Yes, I don't disagree with this but I don't see how this isn't related to perfecting something? If your not doing something right you will never get it perfect. Getting things 'right' could even be a synonym for getting things 'perfect'. > Dan: > We experience Dynamic Quality all the time. It is the cutting edge of > reality, or pre-intellectual experience. I am not sure how correct it > is to say static intellectual quality appears in low quality > situations. I think there are high quality situations where it appears > too... ideas of surpassing quality like the theory of evolution and > the theory of relativity. Yes, you're right. However my point is, that in situations of low quality things can get very Static and stagnant. That is my point here. > Great insights arise seemingly by themselves at times although static > intellectual quality has set the stage, so to speak. I am unsure if > static quality is ever perfect. If it were, it would no longer be > capable of evolving towards something better. I wholeheartedly disagree. That is exactly how things evolve toward something better. Dynamic Quality is undefined betterness. If patterns are perfected there is nothing left but undefined betterness and so static quality has no choice but to follow this undefined better, harmoniously, with the moral Order of the Universe.. i'm not sure I can put it more plainly than that. > Well, again, we experience Dynamic Quality all the time. Zen practice > is designed to quiet the mind and focus attention on the moment. But > there is no goal that zen points towards, no work to be done. Zen is work, work and more work. If you read, there is a book called "Eat, Sleep, Sit", which is of one Japanese gentleman's experience at one of Japan's most rigorous and largest Zen Temples. Zen does point. It points very directly at the goal of enlightenment through the perfection of static quality. It's no walk in the park either. It's doing the same thing day after day, until it's gone. > Just > sit. Just eat. Just be mindful. Yes. What is mindfulness anyway? How does mindfulness work? Mindfulness, as you say, is focusing one's attention on the moment. But what does that mean? What is 'the moment'? Is 'the moment' Dynamic Quality or static quality? I think, for the beginner, mindfulness involves becomming aware of what you are doing. That is, paying attention to all the static quality things which you are doing throughout the day and just doing them. If the mind wanders off, bring it back to what your doing, and do this over and over again until, the mind has quietened down so much, you can be said to have 'become' what you are doing. To be mindful means to perfect. >> David: >> It's through the perfection of static quality that Dynamic Quality can be >> found. > > Dan: > I tend to disagree with this, as I've explained. Perhaps if you were > to put it as the pursuit of perfection, it might be better. To believe > that any "thing" can be perfect is to misunderstand the fundamental > nature of reality. Things can be perfect. In this universe of ours. There is nothing but things. Now Dynamic Quality? How do I experience that? Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
