Hi John --
Hello Ham, and greetings from Bozeman. I almost feel like I'm
on my own Hajj. Hopefully I'll have time to share more of my
experience later.
I explored Yellowstone in the last century with my parents, but never got to
Bozeman. It sounds like a
recreational paradise. Have you done any skiing there?
I do agree that Quality cannot exist in the absence of awareness. I
disagree with the way you then conclude that Quality is subordinate to,
or derivative of awareness. I see them as equally dependent, for you
can't have awareness without some sort of valuation of things.
Awareness is knowing yourself as the 'valuator' of experience. The way I
see it,
you can't have experience without valuing.
Ham, previously:
And, in the MoQ tradition, you believe the social level begets selfness,
rather than the other way around.
John:
Correct. Although I don't derive this idea from the MoQ, I get it from
Royce. Self is a socially - taught construct. A Quality Idea, on the
social level.
Self-awareness is self-evident, even without social intercourse. I would
submit
that the "construct:" learned from social experience is that your awareness
is one
among many; that is to say, relative to others.
Ham:
As the unwary subject of this analysis, perhaps you could explain
why I come across to you as a "cold, calculating half man" who is
"locked away" from "the dynamic romantic side". Just what part of
a human persona am I missing, in your opinion?
John:
I had a good friend, once. Steve Marquis. He and I used to have much
the same kind of discussions. Steve is an engineer. He had a place for
everything and was very uncomfortable with spontaneity. My perspective
on you Ham, comes from a guy who is pretty much loosey-goosey and
impulsive and given to romantic swoons. So if you seem rational-oriented
to me, you have to take into consideration that I'm who I am.
Yes, I know what you mean. A close friend I've known since high school,
who became a biochemistry professor, can't understand why I use the word
"value" to describe human interest and motivation. A life-long student and
true stoic, he insists that value is only "what's important". His idea of
living a
full life is to acquire as much knowledge as possible.
Also, my thinking has been greatly influenced by RMP's writings, and
I tend to classify people into categories of romantically and
classically -
oriented and you seem very classic to me. I do try and keep the
appreciation that nobody fits into any category completely, and that
we all evolve and change and influence one another in numerous ways
so we cannot get stuck on just our past interpretations. I've gained in
appreciation of you Ham, since I wrote that over two years ago,
and some of those opinions I would revise.
Well, I'm glad you feel there's still hope for me, despite that fact that my
romantic nature was more evident during my first eight decades. Although
I try to approach philosophy from a classical perspective, I am personally
more passionate and impulsive than you may think.
Ham:
Always appreciate your insights, John -- even when they "hurt".
And that is a good thing about you Ham. For it is those who hide
from hurtful insights (and aren't all insights, to an extent hurtful?)
live
fearful lives in hiding and never discover the real joy of life.
Knowing how others see you is one of the principal values of social contact.
But we must avoid measuring ourselves by the success of others, lest we find
ourselves trying to "keep up with the Joneses". The real joy of life comes
from realizing its many values. Unfortunately for many, this is a
distraction from the struggle to be successful.
Thanks for the personal analysis, John. And enjoy your vacation.
Cheers,
Ham
Moq_Discuss mailing list
Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
Archives:
http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
http://moq.org/md/archives.html
