Craig asked Steve: But how can the term be meaningless if it refers to a real experience?
Steve replied: What I meant by that claim is that as Pirsig said in Lila, "In the Metaphysics of Quality this dilemma doesn't come up." Likewise, as Pirsig says in LC, if "...the MOQ can argue that free will exists at all levels..." then the term is rendered meaningless for the function of distinguishing human beings from animals as the term is traditionally used to do. dmb says: Yes, of course the MOQ breaks from traditional view of free will and determinism but that not at all the same as saying the terms are meaningless. It's just that the MOQ gives them a different meaning. He's saying that the ability to respond to DQ goes all the way down to the inorganic level and this freedom expands and evolves at each higher level. As the MOQ paints it, reality is both static and Dynamic so that there is a constant tension between order and freedom. That's why the MOQ can argue that free will exists at all levels. Of course, by the time we get to the fourth level we get intellectual moral codes that protect the freedom of thought, freedom of speech and religion and the range of human freedom is so much wider than the behavior of atoms that they can hardly be compared but that's only because there are billions of years of evolution between the two. Again - and I really don't understand why you can't see this - the dilemma is avoided by REPLACING causality with preferences. If this seems like a small thing to you, then you're not appreciating the implications of this move. In one fell swoop all of reality is converted from a giant indifferent machine into a sensitive, responsive form of life. Not just life, he says, but EVERYTHING is an ethical activity. And it is in our activities that real freedom and restraint are empirically known - as opposed to the overblown metaphysical versions, which are derived from the actual experience. Another reason why we shouldn't construe the MOQ's constraints as a new kind of determining factor (to replace cause and effect as the determining factor) can be seen in the way Pirsig corrects the 20th century intellectuals who let the biological forces loose again. Remember Margaret Mead and all that? He says that the intellectuals attacked the Victorian restraints on sexuality, not realizing that those social level restraints were actually a form of liberation from the laws of the jungle. The same thing goes for the static order all the way up and down. You're not really free to write a song or a philosophy book unless and until you practice, practice, practice. Paradoxically, it takes a lot of discipline to be free. Freedom grows out of order and that's why we need both static and Dynamic Quality. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html