Dmb, Let me add one more question:
If you think within the MoQ that free-will and determinism have new definitions, please offer them... Many thanks, Marsha On Jul 26, 2011, at 11:49 AM, MarshaV wrote: > > Dmb, > > > I asked you these question previously, but I'll try again. > > > Marsha: > Three questions: > > Have you dropped the words 'free-will' and 'determinism'? > If you are using new words please define them clearly? > Please clearly explain the reformulation as you understand? > > > If you are not using 'free-will' and 'determinism' as defined in the > dictionary, than you must agree that I was correct to neither accept > 'free-will' and 'determinism', nor reject 'free-will' and 'determinism'. > They are irrelevant within the MoQ. Of course, you are about to explain the > new words to use and new understanding. > > I look forward to your explanations. > > > Marsha > > > > > > > > > > > On Jul 26, 2011, at 10:53 AM, david buchanan wrote: > >> >> >> Steve said: >> ...Sure, but the free will question is about HOW choices are made. >> >> >> John replied: >> Is it? I thought it was *whether* choice was made or even possible. Whether >> it's possible to choose, to freely decide. ...I believe individuality is >> itself a choice, and thus we don't make choices, choices make us. And yes, >> I think that is the exact opposite of determinism. I guess I have no real >> bone to pick with you. It's that Sam Harris guy I find ridiculous. ... >> >> dmb says: >> >> Yes, of course the question of free will is about whether or not we have any >> free will. Knowing something about HOW choices are made can inform your >> opinion as to whether we are determined or free, but that certainly is the >> question. This seems to be just of one of several ways in which Steve has >> confused that question. >> >> One of the biggest problem in this months-long thread is that Steve keeps >> trying to make Sam Harris's determinism compatible with the MOQ's >> reformulation and the result is not pretty. Take a look at these lines from >> Harris's blog and then tell me if you don't think he's a classic SOM >> determinist. >> >> Sam writes, "...You seem to be an agent acting of your own free will. The >> problem, however, is that this point of view cannot be reconciled with what >> we know about the human brain. All of our behavior can be traced to >> biological events about which we have no conscious knowledge: this has >> always suggested that free will is an illusion. >> ...The truth seems inescapable: I, as the subject of my experience, cannot >> know what I will next think or do until a thought or intention arises; and >> thoughts and intentions are caused by physical events and mental stirrings >> of which I am not aware. Of course, many scientists and philosophers >> realized long before the advent of experimental neuroscience that free will >> could not be squared with an understanding of the physical world. >> ...If the laws of nature do not strike most of us as incompatible with free >> will, it is because we have not imagined how human action would appear if >> all cause-and-effect relationships were understood. ...we cannot help but >> let our notions of freedom and responsibility travel up the puppet’s strings >> to the hand that controls them. ...Decisions, intentions, efforts, goals, >> willpower, etc., are causal states of the brain, leading to specific >> behaviors, and behaviors lead to outcomes in the world." >> >> That's enough. You get the idea.... >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org/md/archives.html > > > > ___ > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html ___ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
